Famous conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Kanupriya and Jamadagni in Hawai
PRABHUPADA:"No alternative. Either you accept or reject it."
Los
Angeles, June 26, 1975 - 750626rc.la
Prabhupada: So you have given up the Vaisnava-sadacara for business selling.
So you can be dangerous for that.
Jamadagni: But we have also maintained the Vaisnava-sadacara. They didn't
tell us...
Prabhupada: That's all right. You do that. But they do not see whether you
are maintaining.
Jamadagni: But at the same time, when we were maintaining that, we had the
same problems, is that, when we presented sociological applications of the
philosophy, for instance, to arrange marriages in a reasonable way, that the
women not be sent out on sankirtana to prostitute themselves to sell books,
but be trained up to be wives, or that the brahmacaris in the temple, someone
would sit and talk with them and see how many of them want to be married and
try and arrange some type of training for them, knowing that most of them
are going to become married, rather than just have no training and one day
find oneself married, out on the street with no occupation or training.
Prabhupada: First of all, you are not trained up. You are sometimes becoming
astrologer, sometimes this, sometimes that.
Jamadagni: It's true, because of my birth in this...
Prabhupada: So how they can follow you?
Kanupriya: We're not asking them to follow us. We're asking you Prabhupada,
that these are some problems.
Prabhupada: My request is that first of all you adopt yourself the Vaisnava
acara. Then you try to teach others. Otherwise you have no right.
Kanupriya: But we have done that for five years, and no one here listened
to us at all.
Prabhupada: So why you are anxious to listen... You... Let them not listen.
You do your own duty.
Kanupriya: We had no duty. They gave us nothing to do. They would not recognize
our qualities, as we understand, even of, say Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: So what can I do?
Kanupriya: Well, you can make statements on certain of these things so that
when they hear them, their ignorance will be dispelled.
Prabhupada: Then we have to hear both of you. We have to hear both you...
There will be regular court, and we shall see.
Jamadagni: Not court, simply...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Kanupriya: That would be fine.
Jamadagni: Okay.
Prabhupada: Before me. You are saying something. They may say something else.
So brothers together, we sit down together, and bring this...
Kanupriya: All right. But we have some, also, questions that don't require
that. These are philosophical questions. For instance, in Krsna Book there
is a statement that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now
you have asked that we go and spread Krsna consciousness to the scientific
community.
Prabhupada: So everyone is servant. What is the question of four billion?
Krsna's servant...
Kanupriya: No, Ugrasena, King Ugrasena, that when he was on the planet, he
had four billion personal servants.
Prabhupada: That's all right. He is always the master. He... The Krsna is
the only master.
Kanupriya: Not Krsna. No. King Ugrasena, Prabhupada. Not Krsna. King Ugrasena.
The statement is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now,
we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say
to them, "There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion
personal servants," they laugh and say, "What did they do for toilets?
What did they do for food? Where did they live?"
Prabhupada: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion?
Jamadagni: No. We want to... We want to know if the story has an allegorical
meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a
man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or
whether the stories within the Bhagavatam, apart from some of them being actual,
are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Krsna and Balarama chopping
off the the eighty-eight...
Prabhupada: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion.
Kanupriya: We don't mean to give it up.
Jamadagni: We don't mean to give it up.
Kanupriya: We're saying how can we say to them...
Prabhupada: Anyone, anyone... Why you are going to preach that portion to
a professor?
Jamadagni: No. When they read your books, they pose that question to us.
Kanupriya: They read it. They say to us.
Jamadagni: And unless we can answer that question...
Prabhupada: They ask to only you, but they never ask to us.
Revatinandana: They have. Sometimes they ask me.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Let them ask. But you can tell away that(?)
but you don't repeat this thing. You can give up that portion. You read other
portion.
Jamadagni: But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without
knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why
should they accept Krsna, who they can't see any more than King Ugrasena's
four billion bodyguards.
Prabhupada: Don't accept. Don't accept.
Kanupriya: But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific
man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong...
/Prabhupada: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand,
it is our incapability.
Kanupriya: That is all right. But since we are...
Prabhupada: That's all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these
Puranas. In the Puranas there are many such statements.
Kanupriya: Yes, but we just want to understand.
Prabhupada: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puranas. So what can
be done?
Kanupriya: We're just trying to understand it because we've never dealt with
Puranas before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the
scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the
whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us...
Prabhupada: So let them take it and throw out, don't read it. That's all.
Kanupriya: But then they discredit the Bhagavad-gita. We don't like that when
they discredit the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Why? They don't believe. What is the use?
Kanupriya: Well, because we also want to know how did they have four billion
personal servants just so that we'll be able to convince them and also...
Prabhupada: If a king has four billion servants, so it is not very astonishing.
Why do you think that a king shall have only four servants?
Kanupriya: Well, there's only two billion people on the planet right now.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Kanupriya: So where did they all go?
Prabhupada: I say you don't believe, you don't take it. Why you are insisting
on that point? If you don't believe, you don't take it. If you don't believe
the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you?
Kanupriya: We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved,
because they have not been set up by you.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are.
Kanupriya: Why can we not improve it?
Prabhupada: No. There is no possibility.
Kanupriya: Then what is the use of action?
Prabhupada: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Krsna, that's
all.
Kanupriya: But we also have to make varnasrama society or farms or businesses.
Prabhupada: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.
Kanupriya: But we are doing it. We are.
Jamadagni: We are doing it now, and that's the question...
Prabhupada: So do it in your own way.
Kanupriya: We don't want to. We want to do everything Krsna's way.
Prabhupada: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice.
I say you stop it.
Kanupriya: Then, we say, what should we do?
Prabhupada: You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy.
Kanupriya: No, I mean what should we do Krsna consciously?
Prabhupada: You give up Krsna consciousness, I say. That is my advice.
Kanupriya: Why should we do that?
Prabhupada: Then that I cannot say.
Jamadagni: Isn't there a middle of the road?
Prabhupada: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.
Jamadagni: No. We're not finding fault.
Prabhupada: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either
you accept or reject it.
Jamadagni: We accept, but we would like some instruction on...
Prabhupada: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you.
Jamadagni: No, we accept Krsna consciousness philosophy...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject.
Jamadagni: We accept.
Kanupriya: We want to apply it.
Jamadagni: We want to apply it to the world as it is now.
Prabhupada: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.
Jamadagni: Well, who is authorized?
Prabhupada: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that
is not your business.
Kanupriya: Then what does it mean to become disciple?
Prabhupada: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up.
Kanupriya: We do like it.
Prabhupada: You have already given up.
Kanupriya: If we didn't like it, we would not come here.
Prabhupada: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so
many hair.
Kanupriya: Many of your disciples do.
Prabhupada: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But
those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.
Kanupriya: All right. That is clearing some things up.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Kanupriya: This is what we want to know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Kanupriya: Because then that is an unequivocal statement.
Prabhupada: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and
not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation.
Kanupriya: What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules
and regulations.
Prabhupada: Then let them follow. That's a good life. But from external features
he must be a Vaisnava.
Kanupriya: To get second initiation.
Jamadagni: Does that mean shaved head?
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka,
so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a
crematory ground.
Kanupriya: Why is that?
Prabhupada: There is no "why." If you accept it, accept. If you
don't accept, leave us, leave us. There is no "why."
Kanupriya: Then that is...
Prabhupada: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.
Kanupriya: We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupada.
So I'm sorry that it has to be this way.
Prabhupada: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot
follow, then we don't accept him.
Jamadagni: Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the
few people who...
rabhupada: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask
me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they
are following. That's all.
Kanupriya: But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent
class?
Prabhupada: So that is their business. That is not your business.
Kanupriya: We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business
because we are sincerely trying.
Prabhupada: So why you are bothering me? You do your business.
Kanupriya: Because from you only...
Prabhupada: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs.
Kanupriya: I did not know that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Kanupriya: You never told me that in Hawaii.
Prabhupada: Now I say, I'll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs,
he is no more my disciple.
Kanupriya: All right.
Prabhupada: This is the first condition.
Jamadagni: Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply
for brahmacari dharma? Even you... I have pictures of you on the Bhagavatam
when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your
business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to
brahmacaris, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that...?
Prabhupada: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture,
mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have
shaven.
Jamadagni: Well, in India where one can do business...
Prabhupada: I can... Why you are bringing this question? You ask, "Why
you had mustaches?" I say when I had mustaches, at that time, I was not
initiated. That answer is given. That's all.
Kanupriya: Can I ask one more question, Prabhupada? What I would like to understand
is why it is wrong to ask why? If I can just understand this, why it is wrong
for us to ask you in a submissive way. We were humbly asking you these "whys,"
not because we are trying to be intimidating or we were trying to rebel, but
because we have sincerely tried to understand as your disciples.
Prabhupada: So you better ask my so many other disciples?
Jamadagni: They don't have any answers.
Prabhupada: Then there is no answer. I cannot attend so many things.
Kanupriya: We are not so many.
Jamadagni: But these are the same questions which we have talked over with
Revatinandana Swami and Jayatirtha. A great many...
Prabhupada: If my disciples, advanced students, cannot answer, then I am sorry.
I cannot answer. I cannot answer.
Kanupriya: That we did not know. That we did not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now you know it. I have appointed so many GBCs because to
help me. It is not possible to see everyone, individual. This is not...
Jamadagni: But these are the same questions which they themselves are posing
to you.
Revatinandana: I have never met any other people who asked questions on the
level that they are asking questions. I cannot answer many of their questions.
I have studied all your books.
Prabhupada: I cannot. If you cannot, I cannot also. Because you have been
taught by me, if you cannot, then it is...
Kanupriya: We have also been taught.
Revatinandana: I have read your books, and I have heard you lecture. And so
many things they are asking, I am, have no capacity to answer them. But you
must have the capacity because you know Krsna. Therefore they want to ask
you personally.
Jamadagni: So that is the...
Prabhupada: So far I am not so able to answer. I admit my fault.
Jamadagni: Oh, so then that is...
Prabhupada: I cannot answer.
Jamadagni: I understand. Okay? But they are saying, the general conception
of you is that because you know Krsna...
Prabhupada: You can... You...
Jamadagni: (interrupting) Excuse me. Because you know Krsna, therefore you
know everything about the material world and can answer all questions.
Prabhupada: So whatever I know I have explained in my books. Beyond that I
have no knowledge.
Kanupriya: If that is the case, Srila Prabhupada, that does not diminish our
respect for you in the least because we have always held...
Prabhupada: So what can I do? I say that whatever I have got experience, I
am explaining in my books. I have explained. So it is not possible for me
to answer every individual person. It is not possible.
Kanupriya: We respect that. We understand. It is just that because they are
saying these things...
Prabhupada: I have got my advanced students. They can answer. If they are
unable, answer, if you do not find answer from my books, then it is hopeless.
Jamadagni: Ah! But your advanced students are saying if they give an answer
that because they have been appointed by you, therefore their answer is perfectly
correct, because, absolutely correct on all things in the relative world because,
they have been appointed by you, and because you know...
Prabhupada: You may... That's all right. If you don't believe them, you can
finish business.
Kanupriya: But are they correct? That's what we want to know.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are correct.
Kanupriya: That everything they say is the absolute truth?
Prabhupada: So what can I say? But I have no time to meet everyone.
Kanupriya: Is that correct, Srila Prabhupada? I want to know very clearly
that every word that anyone whom you have appointed says is completely correct
on all things?
Prabhupada: Yes. If they are authorized, it is correct.
Kanupriya: If they are authorized by you to be temple president...
Prabhupada: There is no reply.
Kanupriya: Then when (name witheld) [Subal Swami?] said to me that he wanted
to have homosexual affair with me, I should have said, "Okay. Whatever
you say." Is that correct?
Prabhupada: So how to answer these questions?
Kanupriya: That is what he said to me. And he was a sannyasa. He is sannyasa
and he said to me, "I want to have sex with you." Does that
mean that Krsna was saying I should have sex with him?
Jayatirtha: So you have to see whether it is according to our principles.
Kanupriya: I'm asking you on a very practical... No. That is not what he said.
He didn't say that. He said absolutely, and this is...
Upendra: Then you should listen to everything he said.
Kanupriya: I am. Because if I can judge then, if I can say, "Oh, at this
point he is wrong," then that is what we are talking about, Srila Prabhupada.
That is the issue. If they are absolutely right all the time and they can
make no error, they wield absolute power over our lives.
Prabhupada: Where is (name witheld)? Where is (he)?
Satsvarupa: He is across the street.
Prabhupada: Has he said like that?
Kanupriya: Yes. I have witnesses.
Upendra: But he's admitted his error.
Kanupriya: That's beside the point.
Revatinandana: That's all right. But that's not the point here.
Upendra: The point is that Prabhupada, that if you come before Prabhupada
for your own spiritual advancement, then it doesn't matter what other people
are thinking...
Kanupriya: That's not the...
Jamadagni: That's not the crux of the matter at all.
Revatinandana: The point here is not to criticize (him).
Jamadagni: No. We did not come for that at all.
Revatinandana: That wasn't the reason. The point is that anyone, (name witheld)
or anybody else, he may be a sannyasi, but if he's doing all kinds of nonsense,
how can we say that he has absolute authority? Because he was in charge of
the place, etc., and he is also in an authoritative position, yet he breaks
the principles.
Kanupriya: His personal servant, when he came... His name is (name witheld).
(He) instigated a homosexual affair with him. This boy came to surrender to
Krsna and surrendered to (him). But (he) told him to do that.
Upendra: But Prabhupada...
Kanupriya: Wait. I am not speaking with you. He said he did that and he did
it in the name of his authority as a sannyasa. So if you say, Prabhupada,
that everything that they say is absolutely true, then they will have absolute
power and can do anything that they want, and anything that they say and any
opinion they express is taken to be the same as yours, then it becomes implied
that you agree with and condone such things, because they do them with absolute
license. And we don't believe that to be true. So we think it is some kind
of mistake.
Prabhupada: They say like that?
Jamadagni: Everyone says like that.
Kanupriya: They do, Prabhupada.
Satsvarupa: No, they don't. Srila Prabhupada has said these things don't apply
to you. Don't worry about them because you are not following the principles.
Jamadagni: But they do say, and we are following and you don't know what we're
doing, Satsvarupa, because you haven't known me for two years. So you really
don't know what I'm doing. You're not around.
Satsvarupa: But our society is going nicely. It's not...
Kanupriya: In some respects it's going fine. But these are problems which
can be dealt with amongst us, and they are affecting all of us. And for some
people these are problems though they may not be for you. I think, as far
as I know, your conduct has always been very honorable. But for some people
who it's not and where these misconceptions apply, it's a real problem and
we're trying to deal with it because it affects our lives.
Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sadhanacara.
Kanupriya: We are also attempting to follow sadhanacara. And if we are imperfect...
Prabhupada: Anyway, if he has said so, that is wrong.
Jamadagni: But is that then applying to everyone. Does someone who is in the
adminis... (end)
© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust
75-10-06
SP Letter: Revatinandana
.... You must, however, give up the association of Jamadagni and Kanupriya.
Their company will not be beneficial to your Krsna consciousness.
Remembering Jamadagni and Kanupriya
Back in 1971, as a new devotee, I got to know Jamadagni dasa, an intelligent, well-spoken young man with a strong independent streak that kept him in trouble with ISKCON temple leaders. Because he couldn't get along with the authorities, Jamadagni was for years on the move between the different ISKCON centers of North America. By 1975 he was settled in Los Angeles, working in an outside-the-temple business with a Godbrother named Kanupriya dasa. Their professed aim was to preach from within the karmi society and develop varnasrama-dharma. The general opinion of the devotees living in the Los Angeles temple was that Jamadagni and Kanupriya were "off."
In June 1975 Srila Prabhupada blessed Los Angeles temple with his divine presence. One day Jamadagni and Kanupriya came for a visit. They were friendly with a liberal ISKCON sannyasi who arranged a darsana with Srila Prabhupada for them. In the course of the meeting, Jamadagni began speaking to Prabhupada thus:
The statement [in the Krsna book] is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now, we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say to them, "There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion personal servants," they laugh and say, "What did they do for toilets? What did they do for food? Where did they live?"
Prabhupada: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion?
Kanupriya: No. We want to... We want to know if the story has an allegorical meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or whether the stories within the Bhagavatam, apart from some of them being actual, are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Krsna and Balarama chopping off the the eighty-eight...
Prabhupada: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion.
Kanupriya: But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Krsna, who they can't see any more than King Ugrasena's four billion bodyguards.
Prabhupada: Don't accept. Don't accept.
Jamadagni: But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong...
Prabhupada: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability.
Jamadagni: That is all right. But since we are...
Prabhupada: That's all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these Puranas. In the Puranas there are many such statements.
Jamadagni: Yes, but we just want to understand.
Prabhupada: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puranas. So what can be done?
Jamadagni: We're just trying to understand it because we've never dealt with Puranas before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us...
Prabhupada: So let them take it and throw out, don't read it. That's all.
Let us pause to consider Jamadagni's angle of approach and Srila Prabhupada's response to it. Jamadagni was clearly speaking from the standpoint of the Cartesian assumption that mathematics and analytical geometry are self-evident truth. (Whether he was speaking for himself personally, or only for the scientific community he mentioned, makes no difference.) From this standpoint the sastric statement that King Ugrasena had four billion bodyguards at Dvaraka is irrational. Srila Prabhupada's reply, "don't accept that portion," is a fit answer to give a Mayavadi. Sripada Sankaracarya's philosophy is known as aupanisadika-darsana because the abstruse statements of the Upanisads can be more easily interpreted in an impersonal way than can the Puranas. Therefore, as Srila Prabhupada wrote in a letter of 69-04-02,
The Mayavadis reject the Puranas, but actually the Puranas are supplementary to the four Vedas, the Upanisads and Vedanta. This is confirmed by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura. Srimad-Bhagavatam also is considered amongst the Puranas, but because the subject matter within is purely transcendental, it is called the Maha Purana.
In effect, Prabhupada told Jamadagni, "Being the Mayavadi that you are, you should reject the Srimad-Bhagavata Maha Purana."
Prabhupada: I say you don't believe, you don't take it. Why you are insisting on that point? If you don't believe, you don't take it. If you don't believe the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you?
Jamadagni: We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved, because they have not been set up by you.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are.
Jamadagni: Why can we not improve it?
Prabhupada: No. There is no possibility.
Jamadagni: Then what is the use of action?
Prabhupada: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Krsna, that's all.
Jamadagni: But we also have to make varnasrama society or farms or businesses.
Prabhupada: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.
Jamadagni: But we are doing it. We are. [He's referring to the project he and Kanupriya had started.]
Kanupriya: We are doing it now, and that's the question...
Prabhupada: So do it in your own way.
Jamadagni: We don't want to. We want to do everything Krsna's way.
Prabhupada: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it.
Jamadagni: Then, we say, what should we do?
Prabhupada: You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy.
Jamadagni: No, I mean what should we do Krsna consciously?
Prabhupada: You give up Krsna consciousness, I say. That is my advice.
Jamadagni: Why should we do that?
Prabhupada: Then that I cannot say.
Kanupriya: Isn't there a middle of the road?
Prabhupada: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.
"Isn't there a middle of the road?"
Isn't there a way to adapt Krsna consciousness to the Cartesian assumption, to evolution, to modern cosmology and atomic theory, to humanistic psychology and social values?
"You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy. You give up Krsna consciousness. That is my advice."
Soon after that my old friend Jamadagni changed his name to Indra Armstrong. (Before initiation he had been Jeffrey Armstrong.) As he explained, "Srila Prabhupada said if you want to have lots of sex life, you should worship Indra."
Yes, there's something in the Vedas for everyone. But one who can only accept without difficulty an injunction that allows gross sense gratification, and who on the other hand has difficulty accepting Bhagavata philosophy as it is, should not be considered on a high platform of spiritual realization.
avrtam
jnanam etena - jnanino nitya-vairina
kama-rupena kaunteya - duspurenanalena ca
Thus the wise living entity's pure consciousness becomes covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire. -- Bhagavad-gita 3.39
Krsna consciousness is not aimed at the end of knowledge in the Cartesian sense. It is aimed at the end of lust, which in turn spells the end of a most profound, inward and deep ignorance that a Cartesian is simply not equipped to deal with. Those who are unwilling to relinquish the Cartesian bias are invited by Srila Prabhupada to follow their path wholeheartedly: give up Krsna consciousness, do your business, earn money and enjoy.
There is no middle of the road. There is no contribution to be taken from the Cartesian standpoint that will improve the Krsna consciousness movement. "But why?" Jamadagni asked Srila Prabhupada repeatedly during the darsana.
Prabhupada: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.
Jamadagni: We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupada. So I'm sorry that it has to be this way.
Prabhupada: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don't accept him.
Kanupriya: Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who...
Prabhupada: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That's all.
Feb 21, CANADA (SUN) — Studying
Srila Prabhupada's conversations with ISKCON leaders.
BY:
ROCANA DASA
I recently offered my comments on a morning walk conversation from June 26, 1975. Today, by request, Talks considers a room conversation that took place on that same date. The devotee who asked us to consider this particular conversation indicated that he has had some difficulty understanding Srila Prabhupada's intentions and message in the conversation. As a result, his mind has been quite agitated on the matter. So, I will attempt to offer whatever comments I can from my point of view.
I, too, find this room conversation quite unusual, and I can see why it would be disturbing for some. Neither the text nor audio for this conversation appears to be available online, and in fact, the audio appears not to be available at all. That's unfortunate, because a lot could and should have been learned by listening to Srila Prabhupada's voice on this conversation. By hearing his inflections and mood, we would surely find it easier to understand, as the conversation dynamics take place on a rather subtle level.
Present with Srila Prabhupada for this room conversation are Jayatirtha, Revatanandana, Upendra, Satsvarupa, and two unnamed devotees. As the conversation develops, it's obvious that Srila Prabhupada has become very annoyed with the devotees appearing before him. I'm sure this would be even more obvious if we could hear the audio. If someone has a copy, it would be good of them to pass it on to us.
I did listen to some other audio conversations that occurred near this date, and discovered that I was personally in Los Angeles during this period. I attended various morning walks and garden conversations with the scholars who came to see Srila Prabhupada, but I wasn't invited to this particular get-together. It comes as quite a surprise to me that his meeting even took place, because this type of encounter wasn't the norm. Over the course of the conversation, Srila Prabhupada lets everyone know that he designed a hierarchy that would protect him from having to deal with such issues.
As the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear that Revatanandana Swami had sided with the devotees who were arguing with Srila Prabhupada. He had arranged it so that they could speak directly to Srila Prabhupada on their concerns, which were unresolved in the local temple community of Jayatirtha and Ramesvar. Therefore, the devotees wanted to present their arguments to Srila Prabhupada.
It's also interesting to note that practically everyone but Srila Prabhupada left their active involvement in Krsna Consciousness. Jayatirtha is deceased, Ramesvar is selling real estate in NY, Revatanandana left the movement shortly after this conversation. Of the two unnamed devotees, who I understand to be Jamadagni and Kanupriya, I believe Jamadagni is the one doing most of the complaining and pressing Srila Prabhupada to see his point of view. In fact, Jamadagni (Jeffrey Armstrong) is currently living in the same city as my wife and I- Vancouver, British Columbia. Basically, he's still doing all the same things today that he was doing on this very day, when he annoyed Srila Prabhupada so much. That is, he's wearing hair, he's not presenting Krsna Consciousness, and he's instead presenting himself as a Vedic astrologer. Basically he's trying to be a successful New Age guru, and this is basically what Srila Prabhupada was predicting or observing in his nature.
It also seems apparent that Srila Prabhupada had previously been made aware of the personal circumstances of these devotees, and what the position of their local leaders was on how to deal with them, or how to accommodate them (or not). Srila Prabhupada was obviously in disagreement with their philosophical position and their unwillingness to work in cooperation with the local authorities. He was also unhappy that they were not presenting themselves externally as devotees, i.e., they were not wearing sikha or tilaka. Thirdly, he was unhappy that they were complaining to him about the way Krsna consciousness was presented in the books, which they felt made it difficult for them to preach. They brought up a particular from Srimad Bhagavatam wherein Ugrasena is described as having four billion servants or bodyguards, although there were only 2 billion people on the planet at that time. Scholars had apparently put down the writings as being fictitious mythology rather than factual history, the way Srila Prabhupada has presented it. One can easily image that this didn't sit well with Srila Prabhupada.
At first he tried to give them some basic guidance, saying why present this particular aspect of the philosophy to such scholars and intellectuals? But the devotees pressed on, and Srila Prabhupada could only confront their own dismal lack of faith and surrender to him on the matter.
While Srila Prabhupada didn't bring the point up in this conversation, I recently heard him say that Jiva Goswami's main philosophical point was that it is a pre-qualification for understanding God that you must accept the inconceivable nature of God. I'm sure that all honest devotees can recall that we had to apply this principle right from the very beginning when we read Srila Prabhupada's books. Descriptions of the Lord and His inconceivable potency, and the position of individuals like Ugrasena, can be very hard to understand. The absolute truth is inconceivable! But based on the principle that Srila Prabhupada and the previous Acaryas accept it to be true, and that we're just fallen conditioned souls hoping to make some advancement, we can trust that we'll eventually be enlightened to the true inner meanings. In the meantime, we must simply accept it as inconceivable.
As for the case of how many bodyguards Ugrasena had, this strikes me as a pretty minor point to churn into such a big preaching problem. Srila Prabhupada is basically saying that they have to educate themselves in the philosophy so they can deal with issues like this.
As the devotees continued to press Srila Prabhupada, he suggested they have a court (hearing) on the matter, with him as the judge. The complaining devotees would go before him and explain their positions, then the temple authorities who disagree with them would present their position, and Srila Prabhupada would decide. But because he's the judge, they have to accept whatever his position is. But they weren't in agreement with that suggestion.
Srila Prabhupada tried to address their issues, but in the end it came down to faith. Srila Prabhupada made the point that unless you have faith, you can't read the Puranas. And as anyone who's read Srimad Bhagavatam knows, you must have a lot of faith in order to accept all sorts of amazing facts that are presented. But the devotees in front of Srila Prabhupada were trying to understand sastra with their material intelligence, and Srila Prabhupada obviously detected that they didn't have the required faith, which time revealed to be true.
Srila Prabhupada appears to be quite annoyed at having been put in the position of dealing directly with these individuals, who should have been dealt with by the local leaders or his senior men. Srila Prabhupada ultimately just says to them that 'we're not forbidding for you to be part of the society, you're free to be part of it or not, to accept everything that's in the books, or not. We can't improve on anything in the books, so either accept or reject.' But these two individuals keep insisting that they just want to understand, that their only motive is to have this point cleared up, and that they represent a sub-group of devotees who are interested in varnasrama, farms and business. At one point Srila Prabhupada says strongly, three times:
"Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it."
And when they kept pressing Srila Prabhupada he said, well then just do your business. Earn money, and enjoy. The punch line, so to speak, and what I suppose most disturbed the mind of the devotee who requested my input, was when Srila Prabhupada ordered these two to just give up Krsna Consciousness. He said 'this is my advice to you'. Such a statement seems to be the direct antithesis of the concept that Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to be Krsna Consciousness, and that we were all involved in trying to spread Krsna Consciousness. Yet here were a few of his disciples, who even mentioned that they'd been devotees for five years, and Srila Prabhupada is telling them to just give up Krsna Consciousness based on the principle that, as Srila Prabhupada says right after, they're finding so many faults. Of course, they were finding fault not just with the leaders, which Srila Prabhupada could easily have accepted, but rather finding fault with the books and the philosophy.
So Srila Prabhupada said there's nothing he could do. They either have to accept it or reject it. It's as simple as that. Srila Prabhupada said he doesn't have any other knowledge, nothing he can possibly say that he hasn't already said in his books will help them accept. When they said that they wanted to accept it and apply it, but they needed some input from him so they could apply it in the world, Srila Prabhupada said you can't apply it because you're not authorized to apply it. They came right back at him saying well, who's authorized? Srila Prabhupada basically let them know that he won't authorize them because they won't work according to his plan.
I think it's important for the reader to understand the difference between having this type of conversation with a 'regular guru', and having it with the Sampradaya Acarya himself. Standing in front of the Sampradaya Acarya, who is expecting you to work directly in his mission and under his personal guidance, but instead arguing with him, is extremely offensive and un-Vaisnava-like. So when they asked if they're not authorized, then who is, Srila Prabhupada just said 'that's none of your business, who's authorized. The main thing is you're not authorized'.
The two devotees didn't want to give an inch on this subject and basically said to Srila Prabhupada, what's the use of being a disciple if you won't answer our questions? He replied that in reality, they had already given up being his disciple, because they refused to accept his authority but instead just kept arguing with him.
Finally, rather than try to deal with two such contaminated personalities as these, Srila Prabhupada did what he so often did with Christians and scholars -- he just went to their weakest point to defeat them. This time, he said 'it's because you're wearing hair'. Of course, they came back at Srila Prabhupada again and said well, we're not the only one, many of your disciples wear hair. Srila Prabhupada said well, I'm talking about "big hairs". And if you look at a current picture of Jamadagni on his website, you'll see that he still has pretty big hair, today.
Interestingly, the subject of hair is still a controversy, and often comes up in reference to the standards followed by members of the Gaudiya Matha. It's their standard program to only shave once a month or so, I believe on a schedule that has something to do with the moon. Much of the time they look pretty scruffy. I've heard Srila Prabhupada say that he doesn't accept this look, because his disciples have been branded, i.e., our identity has been established on the principle that we wear shaved heads and tilak, and people recognize us in that particular uniform. If you're preaching in this dress it immediately establishes who you are as a follower of Srila Prabhupada's and of the philosophy. So this was very important in his mind.
As the two devotees continued to belabour the point about hair, Srila Prabhupada pointed out that they weren't wearing tilak either. When Lord Caitanya say anyone who came before Him without tilak, he looked upon their forehead as a crematorium.
Overall, Srila Prabhupada appeared to be very disappointed in their attitude, which was obviously displayed by the dress they were wearing, the lack of Vaisnava symbols such as tilak and shaved head, and especially in their un-surrendered mood when coming before Srila Prabhupada himself, the Sampradaya Acarya. On top of that they were very irreverent and foolish.
Srila Prabhupada said that as far as he could see they weren't strictly following, and one of the devotees said "I'm sorry it has to be this way." Srila Prabhupada replied with a particular statement that is the key to the whole discussion. He said:
"So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That’s all."
They tried to appease Srila Prabhupada by saying well, we're trying to be your disciples, and we're sincerely trying. Srila Prabhupada just said, 'so why are you bothering me? Do your business'. Apparently trying to end the conversation and not wanting them to continue repeating themselves, he said very bluntly: 'I do not accept you because you are wearing hairs'. So they had a choice right then and there... and we know they made the wrong choice.
They even had the audacity to point out to Srila Prabhupada that they saw pictures of him wearing a moustache and hair. In other words, they inferred that he's a hypocrite. Of course, that was when Srila Prabhupada was a householder and was doing business. Srila Prabhupada simply said 'that was before I was initiated'. After being initiated, he said, he always shaved his head.
These two individuals were amazingly persistent, which is an indication in itself of how un-submissive they were. Although they kept trying to state that they were submissive and humble, by their very actions they were proving it not to be true.
Srila Prabhupada asked why didn't just ask these questions of his disciples. They had apparently already gone to Revatanandana Swami and Jayatirtha, and I assume these two authorities didn't have the answers, so they allowed them to come in and present their challenges directly to Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada said if they can't answer the question, it's too bad, I'm sorry, I cannot answer the question. He had appointed the GBC to deal with this, and they were obviously not dealing with it, and it was not that important for him to become involved in.
The devotees then said they had the impression that Srila Prabhupada knew everything, and was speaking directly for Krsna, and Srila Prabhupada said well I've already said everything in my books, and it's not possible to answer every individual person's questions. He appears to have assumed that they weren't reading his books, and he was probably right. They were too busy making money, and basically wanted Srila Prabhupada to resolve a dispute rather than clear up an actual philosophical issue.
The devotees wanted to clarify whether they were supposed to blindly accept whatever the GBC or Srila Prabhupada's representative authorities had to say as being absolutely correct. And Srila Prabhupada simply said, "There is no reply."
To further press this point, one of the devotees challenged Srila Prabhupada by telling a story about an "unnamed leader", who I understand was Subal Swami. The Swami was involved as a temple authority in Hawaii at the time. The devotee told Srila Prabhupada that some temple authority said he wanted the devotee to have homosex with him. He used this as an example, saying should I just have said OK, whatever you want.
Srila Prabhupada had already clearly said that we stand on principles, and the principles are set down in his books. So the challenging devotee should not have had to ask him this challenging question, because it had already been answered. No, you don’t have to follow such an instruction. But this individual wanted Srila Prabhupada to know how bad his authorities were, so he provided the most dramatic possible example.
Srila Prabhupada actually asked at this point to talk to Subal (name withheld). Satsvarupa indicated that he was across the street. I know from listening to other morning walks around this time that Srila Prabhupada definitely got back onto this issue with Subal, and it was a problem that had to deal with.
So even without listening to the audio of this conversation, the tension in the air is unmistakable. Revatanandana Swami began trying to get the devotees out the door, telling them not to pursue it any further. But the devotee argued back with him, saying he's not speaking to him, but to Srila Prabhupada, and he didn't want to hear from anyone other than Srila Prabhupada.
In the end, Srila Prabhupada had made his position crystal clear, saying that these were not his disciples because they weren't surrendered to him. Therefore, none of it was really any of their business. Of course, the temple authorities should have taken care of this problem with Subal Swami, and Srila Prabhupada shouldn't have had to deal with it. But the leaders obviously couldn't deal with Subal… they couldn't even deal with these two devotees. So this very awkward and unnecessary set of circumstances was on account of their own lack of advancement and taking responsibility. Not only that, but none of the devotees seem to have recognized who Srila Prabhupada really was. Of course, if we'd had any idea who he was, we would never have bothered him with issues such as this. Here we have a personality of such exalted stature, and who knows how long it may be until someone so elevated is sent by Krsna again to give commentary on the revealed scriptures? If we had any idea of how important that was, then we would have allowed Srila Prabhupada far more time to engage in his writing activities. But out of the goodness of Srila Prabhupada's heart, he would often meet with devotees and encourage them.
As I mentioned earlier, every one of these devotees has now fallen by the wayside: the leaders, the two devotees who were challenging Srila Prabhupada, Revatanandana, Upendra, even Satsvarupa. In the end, all we have is Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada's books.
In conclusion, it may seem like Srila Prabhupada didn't act the way he would normally have acted when presented with questions from his disciples, but the dynamics of this situations were obviously different than in such a "normal" circumstance. Srila Prabhupada didn't appreciate or like this particular set of circumstances. These devotees had taken initiation, but had decided to move out and be independent. They were really no longer part of his organization, and had just come back to criticize the local authorities and try to appear self-important in their confrontive mood. Somehow they had penetrated Srila Prabhupada's hierarchy and had found their way to his personal rooms, where they so irreverently challenge him. Srila Prabhupada may appear to be harsh, but of course that's the prerogative of the guru. A disciple is supposed to immediately pick-up when the guru is not happy or is annoyed, at which time they should take an entirely different and humble stand or approach. These two individuals did exactly the opposite.
Srila Prabhupada tried to wind up the conversation by just pointing to their hair as an important indication of the true circumstances. One should read it in this way rather than trying to understand it literally, as though the hair was really such a big issue in and of itself. In fact, there can be but a hair's difference between humbly following and not truly respecting the guru. But in this case, there was a mile of difference, and these two individuals found themselves on the wrong side of the ocean. They refused to humbly step into the boat of the Spiritual Master's mercy, and as a result, they essentially drowned in the material ocean, sinking under the weight of their own false ego.
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Note: Subal Swami (an early follower of Siddhasvarupananda, Chris Butler) was apparently the Sannyasi who asks the boy to have homosex with him when he was in charge of the temple in Hawaii.)