Gaura Keshava aka Greg Jay

Gaura Keshava joins PADA in principle
April 27, 2009 - letter from Gaura Keshava to PADA

Dear Puranjan Ji, PAMHO AGTSP

Actually you do not know me very well at all. I have myself been writing for many years AGAINST the ISKCON guru by vote system. The only true system is the sastric system of mutual sastric testing by prospective guru and prospective disciple. I am interested in authentic Vaisnavism neither rubber stamping nor rtvikism. I have written extensively against re-initiation, against the GBC making new spiritual doctrines, against people interpreting Srila Prabhupada's teachings as different from that of the previous acharyas.

[PADA: First of all thanks for agreeing with our main principle: that the bona fide guru is absolute truth, whereas the GBC's gurus are -- relative truth -- hence they need to be given proper advice from yourself, Basu Gosha and others. You have to write "against" them, because they are not factually gurus. Good. That proves our main point, that the GBC's gurus are still conditioned to relative truth, that is to say they are at best: agents, proxies, or ritviks.

By your advising and opposing the GBC's gurus you have proven our main point: that the GBC's "gurus" are not on the absolute platform, they are conditioned souls subject to mistakes, illusion, cheating and so on. That is what we said in 1978, and now you are on board with us over this issue. Great progress!

Therefore, these mundanely influenced gurus are always in need of your continual ongoing help, correction, chastisement, rectification, censure, repair, ... even removal and excommunication. Of course all these rules would only apply to an errant priest and not an actual bona fide guru. That means you aree with our main point. In fact, this year at the 2009 GBC meetings they said: Any guru who does not agree with the GBC shall be removed from his post. This is identical to the order that "any priest who defies the Church council shall be removed." You folks have become ritviks (at least in principle)! Congratulations!

The only problem is that a few laggards like your associate Basu Ghosha is still promoting these adulterated and voted in proxies and de facto ritviks as full-fedged gurus? Your team has been mixing up these two levels, the relative and absolute (also called sahajiya). "Mat guru si jagat guru," this was Sridhara Maharaja's idea that any bogus or rubber stamped guru is also a jagat guru.

So our original 1978 question was, "Is the parampara chain of gurus from God Almighty completely pure or not, is it shaksat hari tvena, or is it shakshat 'illicit sex' tvena"? I think you are now saying what we are saying, that these relative truth beings are not factual members of the parampara, but proxies or what Srila Prabhupada calls "officiators or ritviks." So the eleven were only appointed as relative truth proxies, and that is what they are themselves establishing with their "oath of allegience for gurus" and elaborate processes of censure, removal, excommunion and so on, which would only apply to priests and ritviks. You folks are joining us, direct or de facto.]

GK: You are completely wrong if you think that I agree with past or present ISKCON guru policy. Neither do I endorse (nor reject) any person (including Narayana maharaj or any person outside of ISKCON) as a guru.

[PADA: So this means you are once again agreeing with us. You cannot agree with ALL of the statements of the GBC's gurus or Narayana Maharaja fully, because they are not on the absolute platform. They are proxies at best, thus you can only agree with pieces of their statements, because a conditioned soul will sometimes say things that are absolute, but he will tend to mix that with relative truth. Therefore such neophytes are call mixed devotees, and sometimes ritviks. Agreed. You are correct, the statements of conditioned soul kanisthas cannot be fully endorsed. So you are once again agreeing with us that these folks are not gurus but proxies or as Srila Prabhupada says "insufficient guidance." Hence you and others need to constantly ad hoc adjust their statements, just like the Church council has to address troublesome statements of its priests. You are joining us!

So we have to advance past what Srila Prabhupada said are "buffalo brains hodge podge hindus." They have no abilitiy to discriminate. They think that gurus or the parampara can be contaminated, or that there is an incarnation of God living in their neighborhood. Srila Prabhupada says that means: less intelligent, no discrimination. We need to be able to either endorse people as gurus or not, and get off the platform of buffalo brains hodge podge. Agreed. We have to get off the platform of "accepting and rejecting," as you admit you are still affected by, and get on the absolute plane. Agreed. We ritviks are on the absolute plane at least as far as guru tattva goes, we are not sometimes accepting sometimes rejecting. Also, the guru is qualitatively as pure as Krishna, and so impure guru means -- Krishna is impure as well? Acharyam mam vijnaniyam. Not that we sometimes agree and sometimes not, this is not the platform of guru. Krishna does not say, acharyam mam, sometimes, vijnaniyam?]

GK: I have my opinions only of those whom I consider as my gurus. My position is that it is ONLY the disciple's position to endorse someone as his guru for himself.

[PADA: The brand new comers are not supposed to decide ISKCON's policy on who are its gurus? This is like turning over the brain surgery job to a hospital janitor. Anyway the GBC first of all votes in the local guru, and then people like you go around and train people to worship those local zonal voted in gurus. Then those of us who do not accept the local zonal voted in guru -- are beaten upon with shoes. No real open selection process is available. Worse, the GBC is also trying to address this fact: "Disciples of one guru sometimes shun and disrespect the disciples of other gurus" i.e. no free selection of guru is allowed, as they admit. "Turn over the ISKCON guru tattva to the new bhaktas, let them decide who is guru, and if they chose gay marrige gurus, that is fine, I'll endorse that"? No, we have to decide what is guru, and give that Guru Tattva siddhanta to the new bhaktas. The new bhaktas are supposed to lecture to me that gay marriage gurus are bona fide? How will ISKCON function like this?]

GK: If someone asks me my opinion of someone I tell them to do their own research and due diligence. (And just for the record since you seem so obsessed with homosexuality and child abuse, I lobbied for the removal of Bhavananda from the GBC long ago with many others and I have never endorsed any type of abuse by anyone. Recently I also quoted Manu on the sinfulness of homosexuality in the discussion about Hrdayananda's blessing a gay couple.)

[PADA: So if the GBC gurus are a homosexual marriage blessing foolishness process, why train others to worship that process as you have been doing? If the GBC's gurus are authorizing gay marriages, writing wacky things like SDG, why are we promoting these GBC's gurus? What you need to do is to say, "Gurus in our are parampara are ALWAYS ETERNALLY pure. Thus Hrdayananda is bogus for saying that parampara members are endorsing gay marriages. And the other GBC are equally bogus for not clarifying that parampara members would not endorse gay marriages." You are confusing people about the integrity of the parampara.

Instead, you recently came to Hrdayananda's aid by saying gay marraige is not a big deal, trying to paper over the whole issue. Srila Prabhupada says gay is less than hog and dog, so you are attacking his views as well. And where were you when they reinstated Bhavananda as their acharya? Again, you are working with people who are compromising and indeed totally corrupting the purity and integrity of the parampara. You and Basu Ghosa and other leaders should make a public declaration that the parampara is eternally uncontaminated and pure, or else it looks like you folks are trying to inject the GBC's sewer pipe into the parampara. "Eternally pure chain of gurus," or "eternally goofing off bogus fools making speculative clown-like statements, while engaging in illicit sex and crimes"?]

GK: Your lumping me in with your sworn enemies is your own imagination, I do not discriminate as to who I teach traditional Vaisnava methods of worship or perform traditional Vaisnava ceremonies for, if someone wants to worship this guru or that guru that is their business.

[PADA: You are lumping in deviants and the parampara? I never do that in my worst nightmares because I actually resist attacking God's pure chain of successors. You are (a) training the GBC followers to worship the deviant GBC gurus, then (b) the deviant GBC gurus are training their followers to threaten to kill us, and ban, beat and assassinate us. Yet you have the idea that I am the one not being civil here? Srila Prabhupada says that when people advocate for all kinds of gurus and standards for gurus, they are a Hindu Bindu hodge podge. He said these folks will never become liberated by this hodge podge process. He also never endorsed that we should train people to worship all kinds of bogus persons with "traditional vaishnava ceremonies." Rather this is an insult to the ceremonies. Then again Sulochana said if we worship a dog as acharya that is better than worship of homosexuals and deviants, since a dog will not molest kids and kill us dissenters.]

GK: You may say, that in itself, is improper behavior and that I SHOULD discriminate and only teach or perform ceremonies for pure devotees but that is my choice not yours.

[PADA: No, it is Srila Prabhupada's choice. He says that the worship of bogus people like the bogus gurus of the Gaudiya Matha is a severe offense. He says the guru parampara is pure and anyone who disagrees is a severe deviant. He said we never must compromise with that watered down parampara process. He even said they are making cock roaches into acharyas. And you are training people to worship these cock roaches acharyas? Srila Prabhupada never authorized that.

Of course he also says these Gaudiya Matha fool gurus are fourth class, tenth class, sudras, hogs and dogs, bugs biting the king and so forth, why train others to worship the low class guru sabha? We'd rather train people to worship the highest class. Whatever sins we have done, at least we do not endorse cock roaches as Krishna's gopi lila Vishnupada acharya successors, at least we have got that much to our credit. So if you do not want to discriminate that the parampara is fully pure, this is the Gaudiya Matha's deviation.]

GK: I am a wellwisher not only of ISKCON and all other Vaisnava groups and sampradayas but I am even a wellwisher of sincere Vaisnavas, such as Ameyatma, Yasodanandana, etc. who sincerely believe in rtvikism.

[PADA: You disagree with the people who worship exclusively pure devotees, but you agree with the people who worship cock roaches and hogs and dogs as their acharyas?]

GK: I disagree with rtvikism and with many things espoused by the GBC and ISKCON, I disagree with things preached by Narayana maharaja's group and other Gaudiya Math groups. I disagree with some things accepted and preached by my Madhva and Ramanuja friends. But still I consider some groups and doctrines as more authentic than others.

[PADA: Once again you admit your are forced to cherry pick statements, so these people are conditioned souls. If they were absolute you would accept all of their statements. Do you disagree with our idea that the parampara is eternally pure? On what basis? So your ideas are sometimes "more authentic than others" and someties not so much, that means you are on the relative platform. Absolute platform means all the statements are authentic. Sometimes we are accepting this or that, mano rathena.]

GK: ISKCON is far from perfect, never was perfect either even during Srila Prabhupada's time with us, however it is still closer to following traditional Vaisnavism than rtvikism.

[PADA: Worship of illicit sex with men, women and children is "closer to the Vedas" than worship of a pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada? Are you sure you want to stick with that idea? ISKCON's guru parampara is "far from perfect" which is what the Gaudiya Matha and GBC are saying? If the parampara is not pure and faulty, how can we obtain God from a mundanely influenced guru lineage? Problem is, you folks raise more questions than answers. No, God is pure and He is only obtained through a chain of the similarly pure. Period. And even if we are in an imperfect society, we have to at least worship the perfect. That is why I am trying to love Lord Krishna and His Pure Devotee, I am not supposed to worship the imperfect society.]

GK: Personally I have no problem associating with any sincere Vaisnavas, ISKCON people, Rtiviks, Gaudiya math, Madhvas, Srivaisnavas, whoever. I have many friends whom I know have different opinions on certain things, they even may belong to other sampradayas, yet they are all Vaisnavas.

[PADA: And that is why Srila Prabhupada wanted us to be careful not to implement the teachings of other sampradayas and teachers, because it would water down his ideas. In any case, these other groups are probably just as much hodge podge as you are. As they say: to be friends with everyone is to be friends with no one, you cannot be trusted by anyone. Srila Prabhupada never said we should incorporate all these diverging views into HIS ISKCON. His view was never that we must allow the newcomers to speculate on the status of the parampara, he wanted us elders to form a mature managerial body to insure that his teachings and his views of the parampara would be kept pure.]

GK: Many people hold very hard and fast views about certain issues. So do I, however I don't try to let that stop me from having at least civil discussions with them. As such I find your "shotgun style" ad hominem approach to be offensive, but I have to accept that it's your way of doing business. So be it. My personal opinion (which I'm sure you don't share) is that you can never convince a person to modify their views by ad hominem attacks. I've never seen this work.

[PADA: Our idea is working, we are getting more people on board with the Prabhupada worship idea all the time, partly because we are so good at exposing the alternative. And you are saying you agree with our main idea, that the GBC are relative plane hence you have to oppose them. I just went through a long e-mail writing exchange with a disciple of Jayapataka and convinced him that he should join our idea, mainly because I recounted all the deviations. On Rocana's site and indeed all over Prabhupadanuga land we see more and more people refer to the GBC as "a homosexual and pedophile worship club." OK, that means we are being effective, everyone is copying our idea. And at the same time more people are also saying, the guru parampara is pure, not full of jack-asses.]

GK: I am open to constructive dialogue on any subject. However at the end of the day I accept that people only rarely are convinced even by logical sastric arguments. Therefore the best advise I can give (and I'm sure you don't want to hear it, but I'm giving it anyway) is to concentrate on establishing your own position based on logic and sastra, as far as possible, put it out there for everyone to see, then get on with your life.

sincerely
Gaura Keshava das

[PADA: We are preaching to people all the time who send us e-mails after reading our sites, and they are very happy that they have been saved from worship of the bogus messiahs. They think we have the correct shastric ideas. Personally, we are right now preaching to a sanskrit scholar who is totally appalled that the GBC is changing the books. This person will never accept your hodge podge / cherry picking ideas, and this person will in turn preach to others and convince them and so on an so forth. Individually and collectively, all of us are doing that all over the world in places like Russia, Taiwan, China, India, USA, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, Costa Rica, Canada, everywhere.

So clearly our process is working, we are expanding not only with manpower but with more web sites, more lawsuits, more demand for un-revised books, and so on. Meanwhile the GBC has to turn over Phoenix to the Hindus because people with discrimination are not needed, they want some simple worker drones who are running an alcohol lounge to manage their temples. So we will take the sanksrit scholars and your folks can take the hodge podge buffalo brains. We are getting the more discriminating folks, and the GBC is getting what Srila Prabhupada said is the buffalo brains. So we are winning this by the process of attritrion: i.e. they are losing people, we are gaining people, that means over time we will prevail. We are also getting the smart people like the Bangalore devotees.

I think at some point the GBC will have to deal with us eventually, in fact they are letting some of our folks "do service" at some temples, because they have got no one left. More and more temples are placing more and more emphasis on worshiping Srila Prabhupada and less and less focus on their local voted in guru, so this means our process is gaining and winning even inside the movement. I have contacts within the movement who tell me three more of their gurus are under "suspicion," two of them for alleged homosexuality. So that just means we are going to see more defectors, and that just means more folks will come to ours and Srila Prabhupada's side. Its just a question of time, just like the Kurushetra war was already won by the Pandavas before the war even started. Time is showing that we are winning. Anyway thanks for your more more heartfelt tone of letter.
ys pd]

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Dear prabhus, First of all Garua Keshava is correct, and he is indeed making our case: That the only way to implement Srila Prabhupada's directives is to use "legal action" or some other form of "big stick" process against the bogus GBC's gurus. This further proves that the GBC's gurus are not only ordinary mundane men -- in need our constant corrective "shiksha" advice -- but also that the GBC's gurus are so corrupt they will not listen to any reasonable arguments and so -- they need to be legally attacked. This is another wonderful step Gaura Keshava is taking in our direction. Bravo!

Gaura Keshava first of all admits that the GBC are NOT gurus since they are in constant need of our correction, censure and removal: proving that the eleven were only appointed as ritviks, not gurus. And now GK admits that the GBC gurus are corrupted so badly we need to take legal action to correct them, again proving that they were NOT appointed as gurus. Meanwhile, Gaura Keshava admits that the GBC gurus are so bogus that they are creating many false documents such as their apa-siddhanta 1984 "diksha re-initiations" scheme, concocted by Satsvarupa and his then "rasika advisor" Narayana Maharaja, again proving that they were NEVER appointed as gurus.

The May 28th tape may have also been spliced, Gopa Vrndapal told me Ramesvara was splicing tapes. In any event, that tape does not appoint eleven gurus or any gurus at all. Then again Srila Prabhupada complained he was being poisoned, and that means the "diksha guru argument" may have been used as a vehicle to promote -- the poisoners. Woe unto them who support that sabha. Sorry, the more scholarly the "kill guru and become guru" supporters are, the more further they fall into an even deeper hole by Yamaraja's order especially because they are more responsible for the ensuing mayhem and criminality.

Anyway, we all seem to agree ... the GBC "gurus" were never actual gurus in the first place, since fallen persons could never give diksha in the first place. Nor does the GBC even understand what constitutes "diksha" and so Gaura Keshava and us ritviks have to try to explain it to them and so on. It seems that every day Gaura Keshava is growing more into a promoter of major pillar components of the ritvik process. Bravo!

Then again, what idiot wants to be "re-initiated" by the person that was just voted in by one's fallen guru? "After my first guru was having illicit sex with men, women and children, he went into a big room and voted for my current guru." What! Yep, even GK can smell this stinker one a mile away! Of course Gaura Keshava has so far not explained why he trains people to worship "illicit sex with men, women and children" guru lineages? Aren't gurus supposed to be at least a little more advanced than dogs and swine?

Perhaps only Basu Ghosha is still thinking that Krishna's successor messiah gurus are "voted in" by folks who are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children" at this point. Recently Basu Ghosha wrote to more or less explain how he still thinks it is better to worship his illicit sex with men, women an children messiahs -- than it is to worship Lord Jesus. Christians sometimes write to PADA and ask us how is it that the ISKCON leaders promote the worship of a child molester messiah's cult as -- superior to Jesus?

It is better to worship "the living pedophile messiah's cult" than it is to worship old dead body Lord Jesus? And the only good answer we can think of is: "The bogus ISKCON leaders are modern day Pharisees who hate Jesus, that is the only explanation." Basu Ghosha is thus promoting his Pharisee brethren like Howard Resnick, Jay Israel and so on, as better messiahs than Jesus. What else is new? The Pharisees were angry that Jesus's worship continued after he departed, and the Gaudiya Matha deviants were angry that Srila Prabhupada used the title of "Prabhupada."

Of course, our idea has been to simply expose the bogus GBC gurus which has pretty much the same effect as a lawsuit: it drains away their supporters and resources and gives us allies to promote our idea instead. Either way, by expose or lawsuits or both processes applied at once, we are all agreeing that forceful means are required to reign in the GBC's bogus guru cults since they are corrupt and not even good mundane gentlemen, so they need to be exposed and sued. The GBC's bogus gurus are never going to include us in a "vote over the DOM," rather we'd have to sue them to get that right. Agreed.

Ameyatma is also correct, ISKCON does not appear to have a diksha guru shortage problem, since there has been probably about 200 of them voted in since 1977. Rather the real problem is that ISKCON is like a headless body that has no practical managerial basis. To sum, ISKCON is not being managed even as well as a mundane company. Even ten year old children could manage things better than the ISKCON leaders. ISKCON is thus being mismanaged and so: The ex-children are alienated and only a few of them participate; ISKCON is being drained of manpower and thus many temples are empty; Very little harinama and book distribution compared to former times; Hindus are taking over; There is bad publicity everywhere; There are expensive lawsuits, legal problems, bankruptices etc; And ISKCON even spawned its own competition by supporting Sridhara and Narayana Maharajas.

And we are probably going to hear about some more "guru scandals" soon ... so ISKCON is clearly being mis-managed, while fools like Basu Ghosha want to know if our folks got their rubber stamp of approval and even diksha from these mis-managers. In short, there are plenty of alleged messiahs running around, but apparently almost no one to manage. In Los Angeles, The LAPD police once told me that Watseka is "the most dysfunctional block in the whole city." They also told me in another instance that "You had better get out of here, these (GBC guru followers) people want to kill you."

So even the local laymen know that these temples are totally dysfunctional places that have become havens for crooks, thugs, molesters and low lifes, and indeed our life and limb are in peril for even being near one of their facilities. And many also know how ISKCON became a haven for homosexual child molesters -- thanks to its current "managers." So there is no "direction of managing," nor is any direction wanted, because "criminals thrive on chaos" as Srila Prabhupada says. In any case, congratulations are in order for Gaura Keshava, every day he is getting closer to being part of our process. Bravo. thanks pd

Dear prabhus, seems like Gaura Keshava is getting more obstinate now, just after we were just making some headway with him. He says we have to "humbly" approach the current GBC, ie his and Basu Ghosha's child molester messiahs project, and try to "reason" with them despite we commonly get: Banned; Beaten by multiple attackers; Chased with baseball bats -- again with multiple attackers; and even assassinted in that endeavor. Despite that we do not accept Gaura Keshava's idea that the molester messiahs are an "orthodox and traditional" process and we are the dissenting outsiders. The only good news is that he advises us to sue them, but then he says that is not the humble and reasonable path.

GK has all along been promoting a violent molester messiahs cult, painting it as "orthodox and traditional" in order to suck in thousands of more victims, and he simply wants more victims to pile up. GK and Basu Ghosha have been training people to worship the members of the molester messiahs guru project, while we protesters are getting beaten and shot. There is no "reasonable discussion" possible.

No, we do not discuss with them quietly and reasonably, or we will end up beaten or dead. We must discuss with a violent molester messiahs cult using the public expose process, and then we will live. Dr. Stilson Judah told me that too, never meet with them in a private secluded place, you will probably not survive. You must stay independent and connected to the police at all times, that was his advice. "Watch your back" is how he summed it, and we have to approach the child molesting and dissenter murdering messiahs cult humbly? And die! Wow thanks!

Gaura Keshava wants more people to go and humbly protest, and end up beaten or dead. This is what Hrdayananda said to me at Rathayatra one time, why not humbly go to Mayapura and present my case, "sure" my friends told him, "He'd end up dead and floating face down in the river in 24 hours." This is the orthodox program?

This is the "reasonable" cult Gaura Keshava is promoting? They are a violent child molester messiahs cult, period. And GK goes around and endorses and trains people to follow their bogus process, that means he is de facto training the thugs who come and beat and kill us. No, the GBC is not holding all the cards, we have exposed them so badly, sued them and bankrupted them so badly, and destroyed their arguments so badly, thousands of people are now writing dissenting papers and letters, a revolution of dissent has been spawned -- with us at the spear tip.

Anyway this is great stuff, the enforced cult ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophile messiahs needs to be approached humbly, ..... so we can be killed and fed to dogs without much notice, as apparently occured to some "quiet and humble" dissenters of Gaura Keshava's cult, while he was at New Vrndavana propping it up. And meanwhile as the children are all getting stuffed in the back room, GK trains folks to offer pooja to the molester messiah cult's main perps. GK is responsible for their crimes as their hired witch doctor.

Notice, he says we have to humbly approach the enforced cult ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophile messiahs cult, we have to be humble towards them? No, we have to attack that process. No wonder so many kids were molested, as they were being viciously victimized and assasulted, Gaura Keshava was calling for calm and humble submission to these bogus messiahs, and GK even trained people to worship of the main perp leaders. And he and his pal Basu Ghosha are still at it, and with that camp. Thanks, butt no thanks, ys pd

[PADA: Right, quite funny is it not, while people like Basu Ghosha's GBC messiah aka Gopal Krishna are getting voted into the pedophile messiahs club, and the children are all getting starved, beat and molested, and people like us are getting chased with baseball bats and getting assassinated, you guys are all laughing at your victims. And now you are telling us to be nice and humble and work with these same fellows, because they somehow did not assassinate us?

And now they are spending millions of rupees suing us to stop our free food program, and you are laughing and telling us to work with them? No, you are a supporter of the worship of the molester messiahs and now starving the poor program, not us?

What else is new? And now you and Basu Ghosha want us to be nice and humble and work with the GBC guru club like Gopal Krishna, whose only qualification is that he is was interested in getting voted into the pedophile messiahs club and not in the victimization he was causing.

So, your program, indeed the program you are setting up the worship for, is creating suffering for tens of thousands of others, just so you folks can fatten your wallets as their witch doctor, and you think that all of the molesting, beatings, murders and so on -- that your policy and your actions of support caused are -- funny? Well here is your main problem, you cannot take your fat wallet with you when your depart from here.

Idi Amin used to also laugh as his victims suffered, I guess he knows shastra better than us. This is why we know that you know zero shastra. By the way, your pal Basu Ghosha says that Narayana Maharaja told him to stay in the institution. Right, the cult enforced institutionalzed pedophile worship cult is also NM's favorite.

We also saw NM hugging Jayadvaita in May of 2008, the guy who says that gurus are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children" are your pals huggable favorites, so you are all peas in a PADA expose. Even dogs do not engage in illicit sex with men, women and children and these less than dogs are Basu Ghosa's messiahs club members, and this is all LOL funny? Well, that is what we will report, you think all the victims of your policy are "getting their karma" as your hero NM says, well maybe, but one day you will be the persons on the receiving end. I have to say that I pity those who will be getting karma for their supporting the illicit sex with men, women and children messiahs club as well as the karma their witch doctors will get. thanks pd]

Reply from Isa das: We have 100% proof Srila Prabhupada was poisoned. So it is 10000% fair to condemn the GBC for the cover up and lack of proper investigation. Also they are condemned for not going after the GBC's and TP's who knew about the child abuse and did not stop it. The head of the child abuse office was told he would be shut down if he did.

Reply from NNV das: I was present with the Gurukulies a few years ago for the official "apology" from the GBC (Bhadri etc) Armarendra gupta, and Jayadwaita, and Tamohara.

The Gurukulies were totally upset, and I kept on helping them to speak and use their voice;

Jayadwaita actually argued that one of the child abusers who later went on to become a "guru" was rightly situated because "even if a person does abominable acts"....etc from the Gita.

I rose and pointed out to him that this is indeed true..........but not after Diksha from a Pure Devotee of the Lord.....That such abominable acts are more atrocious as they are clearly offenses against the Holy Name of the Lord, against the Chastity of Brahmin boys etc. I concluded that such demons as Jarasadha would never have dared to mistreat brahmacharies entrusted to them and in a protected Ashram.

And Tamohara?..........He created the case for the CPO to "look into" each case before it was sent to the police....(in reality, INSTEAD of being sent to the police) I know Tamohara, I am fond of Tamohara but that day I lost all respect for Tamohara prabhu.

He acted just like the Catholic Hierarchy going to any extreme, legal and otherwise, to cover up Catholic child abuse and to misdirect those who could seek justice for the damaged child, not the "besmirched" Church.

I do not know why Isa prabhu thinks that Tamohara is a "good guy" regarding his duties......That day, armed with a blackboard, statistics on psychology and ANYTHING but compassion for the 'Kulies in the audience. (where I was sitting next to them with my daughter Shakuntala and son Kuvaleshaya, amid their bowed backs shaking with sobs.....I can say that I was not impressed.

Using my "ghoulish" sense of humor, at the end when the embattled GBC and the broken hearted 'Kulies were about to part.....I INSISTED THAT THE GBC GIVE THEM A GROUP HUG!

You should have seen their faces!......It was like Jeffery Dahmer giving a "hug" to the ghost of one of the men that he killed and ate!

The GBC fled as soon as they could....leaving the 'Kulies in a huddle gazing at one another in disbelief. NNV das

Reply from GauraKishor das: Right, Basu Ghosha and GK are well aware of present ISKCON's process to capitalize on a policy of letting people who are hard up and want to join to take shelter at Krishna's Lotusfeet - let them sign a contract. It is immoral in that sense, that it contravenes the human rights making contracts with the distressed - this is not Prabhupada's program how to make people join Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement and become real Vaishnavas. Poor people who are whipsawed by kali-yuga governments to let them sign a contract when joining Prabhupada's movement, it is even against public policy.
When getting initiated by an ISKCON guru, again, let them sign a contract.
So, what happens, only people sign such a contract who consider that they can somehow materially exploit the situation. Those who are actually devotees will not consider this as a genuine spiritual movement. Remember when Prabhupada made people to chant Hare Krishna, now, what would have happened when saying, I have written a contract, in case you consider to join, could you lease sign this contract?

Gaura Kesavas illogical reasoning

It has become ABUNDANTLY clear - at least to my view - that this gentleman (Gaura Kesava Das) is lacking the ability to correctly apply his God Given intelligence.

His method of reasoning is one of the most intellectually specious and illogical I have ever encountered and this is not merely hyperbole.

In addition his method of interpolating 100% "imagination" into a discussion is comparable to fiction writers sitting around cooking up a script from a few snippets of a potential story line.

Gaura Kesava takes what is "NOT THERE" or "NOT SAID" to be more important in discussing important matters concerning Srila Prabhupada and his mission - PRECISELY because such "focus" (I call it such while tasting a sizable chunk of salt) allows him the justification for assigning greater significance to what HE WISHES SRILA PRABHUPADA MEANS OR MEANT WHEN HE DID NOT DO OR SAY THIS OR THAT - THAN HE DOES TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY ORDERED BY SRILA PRABHUPADA.

This is simply cheating; himself first of all and anyone willing to submit their own volition to such a silly and childish prank.

We are all grown men. Let us stop patronizing such a childish prankster. Is it not clear that this is in fact a form of sense gratification for him? He sits before a computer in some far flung location - spewing all his "brilliant" conclusions as to what REALLY IS as opposed to what IS in the public record from The Acharya.

Why grant anything he utters any significance whatsoever? He holds no position of any importance that I know of. He has no influence anywhere I have heard of. He lives where exactly? Does what exactly to maintain himself exactly? Who really cares what he thinks of his own fanciful imaginings as to what HDG really meant when he said this or that - or even more weirdly - what srila prabhupada REALLY MEANT when he actually SAID NOTHING!

Just like our Godbrother Tripurari Swami who produced his own work "The Bhagavad Gita as It Really Is" - Gaura Kesava sees what we don't see - and rejects what is as plain as the nose on Karl Malden's face.

I say - don't give this gentleman any power to affect you at all. His ideas exist in the short 6 inches between his two ears and in terms of the vastness of this Universe - that 6 inch space is beyond insignificant. Why invite what lied only within his head - into your head only to rattle your cage?

When he takes this untenable position, he cannot be taken seriously any more than a man who is delerious with fever can be taken seriously.

Think about it. He is arguing about the actual meaning of what Srila Prabhupada DID NOT SAY! This is comedic fodder of the highest form!!

"What question ..Oh yeah are you fat? No of course not..but what does this have to do with any look..what were we talking about when you brought up the look? Cuz the whole Pope thing got me thinkin'"

"Well the Pope is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ right and well is Christ a Catholic?"

"That damn look you gave me. That's what. I know exactly what you meant with that look and I don't appreciate it one bit"

"Darling - you misread that look. You that was my "I am tired of your bull***t look - but that was actually my "Man I love this girl when she is bull****ing look!" You just confused the one with the other That's all!"

"Right...well now whatever you were THINKING and whatever I thought I Knew you were thinking when I thought about what you were thinking .... I am sure that you are bull****ing now!''

"Well that is the sweetest bull***t you have tried to serve me in a long time darling"..so I am gonna forget I ever saw that look and just have a nice day with you. Is that OK?"

You gotta love devotees. Lovable eccentrics all. Gaura you are at the top of my list. When you come back to earth let me know. I bear you no grudge at all.

It is all much less complicated than you insist upon making it: both for yourself and others.

Praghosa