Krishna Kirti Dasa aka Christopher Shannon

Three (3) Questions to Krishna Kirti

Krishna Kirti das
Christopher Shannon

Since Krishna Kirti refused to anwer these three questions, they where answered instead by Praghosa Prabhu.

Dear Prabhus, Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Kindly allow me to offer some words on these three questions posed.
My comments will be in red below. [Urdhvagas question are in black]

1. Question

Srila Prabhupada said: "It is a fact however that the great sinister movement is within our Society. [ISKCON]" [Srila Prabhupada Letter to: Hamsaduta 2 September, 1970]

This "sinister movement" referred to the influence of his godbrothers and their misunderstaning of his position vis a vis Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. They had all to the man - starting with HH Sridhara Swami - mistakenly pursued the position of "Acharya" making the mistake Srila Prabhupada said, "That they could make(appoint) a "perfect man". This was a complete and total reversal of the direct teachings of SBSST that gave emphasis to the REALITY that "The Guru is not a mortal erring creature like ourselves" and all pretenders to this "real" position MUST be renounced - "The moment they are discovered to be "fallible creatures" - like ourselves".

In otherwords - the introduction of both Mayavadi and Sahajiyism are the bridesmaids to "installing" or appointing someone as "Guru" or one who "is the eternal servant of Krishna whom He sends into this world for the deliverance of causeless Divine Mercy, in order to help us rise out of the depths of sin to our natural state of absolute purity".

The full quote:

"The Guru is not a mortal erring creature like ourselves. He is the eternal servant of Krishna whom He sends into this world for the deliverance of causeless Divine Mercy, in order to help us rise out of the depths of sin to our natural state of absolute purity by methods perfectly consistent with the principles of our unbiased reason. As long as we refuse to listen to him we are doomed to misunderstand everything."

So Srila Prabhupada herein says that there is another movement within our movement. That means there is another IskCon within Iskcon. So, Srila Prabhupada clearly differentiates between two types of Iskcon (another movement within our movement) So we actually have two Iskcons, but the other Iskcon is a sinister movement, as Srila Prabhupada stated.

The definition of "sinister" is rooted in the concepts of lucky and unlucky. Fortunate and Unfortunate and good and bad. Auspicious and Inauspicious. It was from the latin word for "left" as in left handed. From the left hand was considered unlucky. Like saying this vs that. It has come to signify evil. Evil is the "back side" of Krsna.

I once offered Srila Prabhupada a flower corsage - hand picked by me in Hawaii. He smiled and reached and then noted that I was offering it with my left hand - my right hand covered with my japa bag.

"Left Hand?" he queried.

"Oh I a sorry Srila Prabhupada" I said, attempting to quickly change the corsage to my right hand.

"That's all right" he said as he smiled upon my effort. "But next time" he admonished "Right hand only".

I was thrilled! Again he spoke to me and corrected such a minor detail - he immediately gave grave importance to all the much larger ones by taking the time to address this little one. I was suddenly lucky!

So - sinister?

Well it means that the real thing - has been deftly taken from the "right hand" and transferred to the "Left hand". His clear and unblemished understanding of ALL THE CONCLUSIONS OF THE PARAMPARA - ENCAPSULATED IN UNFETTERED AND UNWAVERING FAITH IN THE SELF REALIZED ACHARYA - given BY Srila bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's TRUE "RIGHT HAND MAN" - His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada - was being EQUATED with the "relative" consideration of guru - that had so disturbed and interrupted the mission of the Gaudiya Math; as if mere election could establish or make what is described by Lord Krsna as the "inherent" feature of the Guru upon his appearance in this world: HIS ABSOLUTE PURITY.

So now my question: why some people always quote Srila Prabhupada said: "You'll show your love to me by how you cooperate together."?

Does this refer to the sinister Iskcon which is within our movement, or does this refer to Srila Prabhupadas genuine Iskcon, with whom we have to cooperate?

These are clearly rhetorical questions. Thus you are not asking a question - but in fact affirming a point. Keep it simple. The facts speak for themselves. In logical discussion - your conclusion - your "therefore" is reserved for the end upon revealing all the simple facts.

The fact is - what was ISKCON has been deftly exchanged for its opposite.

This fact is easy to establish - with the written record of Srila Prabhupada's stated Directives.

We do not have to allude to motive as sinister. We can leave that to Krsna to work out. What we are duty bound to address is WHAT WAS and WHAT IS and thus WHAT SHOULD BE in the matter of WHAT CONSTITUTES ISKCON.

It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada pointed out two different Iskcons, the one which is inside the other. And Srila Prabhupada again says: THAT IS A FACT.

I hope that I am so far right in my conclusion, otherwise I need correction. Now why some people insinuate, that we have to show our love to Srila Prabhupada, by cooperating with this sinister movement within our society? Or in other words: why we have to cooperate with a sinister Iskcon within or society (which is according to Srila Prabhupada A FACT), in order to show our love to Srila Prabhupada?

Isn't this quote misused by the so called devotees of that sinister movement? To force us, to accept their sinister activities?

Can someone please explain this?

Clearly - cooperation is meant to be with ISKCON as established IN WRITING by SRILA PRABHUPADA.

An analogous example would be to analyse the legality of a purported "Law" in the United States. If this law conforms to both the established source of our "lawful" system - the Constitution and its "HIgher and Prior Law"; the Declaration of Independence - then the law in question can be easily assessed as in fact "lawful" or in fact serving "under color of law".

The US Supreme Court in FACT did establish this very FACT in 1886 in Norton vs Shelby, when they ruled the following:The Court said: "An unconstitutional act is not a law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties. It is, in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed." The government of the United States is that set of actions by public officials that are consistent with the Constitution. Outside of its constitutional powers, the government of the United States has no legitimacy. It has no authority; and, it really even has no existence. It is what lawyers call a legal fiction.

So in the same way - ISKCON is ONLY exactly what it Srila Prabhupada ORDERED it to be - and WE are ONLY PERMITTED TO REPRESENT HIS CAREFULLY ESTABLISHED POWERS AND DISABILITIES ASSOCIATED WITH ISKCON - as they are established by him in the OATH OF ALLEGIANCE that he personally dictated on this matter.

Anything else - is a "legal fiction".

THERE is your answer. .

Those sinister "devotees" (kali-chelas) from the sinister movement which is in our society, always quote above citation but the never quote Srila Prabhupadas instruction, to completely neglect such kali-chelas.

Didn't Srila Prabhupada instruct us to differentiate between the two? The sinister movement and the genuine movement, the kali-chela devotee and the genuine devotee? Are they all on the same platform or not?

2. Question

Why is it "slandering devotees" when someone tries exposing this sinister movement along with its sinister devotees?

It can be. It is a question of HOW one sets about correcting the problem. Scattershot chit chat - like that which is fostered by the likes of most - especially men such as Rocan Das and his Samprajalpa Sun website are pointless gossip sites - patronized by the most "sinister" left handed posers because they ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE SRILA PRABHUPADA AS THE FOUNDER ACHARYA AND TRUE AND AVAILABLE SAMPRADAYA ACHARYA - and his simple arrangements as the simple solution to all the myriad of problems. They all talk talk talk -blah blah blah - but do not propose to solve the problems. Such simple resolution would leave them out of work and without a mission. such resolution would oblige them to once again engage in samkirtan and - THIS they do not wish to do.

So HOW you set about resolving these issues can in fact be slanderous and quite hypocritical. If it conforms to the examples and precepts given us by Srila Prabhupada it will be effective. If not - it is a huge waste of time.

Srila prabhupada: "There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaishnavas in this Krishna Consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected.

"Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, Kali-cela. He indicates that there are other Vaishnavas, pseudo-Vaishnavas, with tilaka on their nose and kunti beads around their neck. Such a pseudo-Vaishnava associates with money and women and is jealous of successful Vaishnavas. (CC.Madhy.,Ch.1, Text 218 / 220, purport)

Why is it "slandering devotees" to expose kali-chela devotees? Are they on the same platform as genuine devotees?

Isn't there any difference between an innocent gurukula boy and Bhavananda sitting on the Vyasasana and afterwards sucking that boys genitals?

Dumbass question. Drop this tack it is illogically "begging the question" and such logical fallacies have no place in manly discussion. I would not allow my son to get away with it...you won't either.

Is Radhanath Swami (Richard Slavin) a genuine innocent devotee or a kali-chela devotee, a murder-devotee ? for he paid money to murder Sulocana.

Radhanath Swami
Richard Slavin
Murderer

He is a "True Believer" and this malady is shared by a very large % of the world's population. His training is from the KIng of Posers - Kirtanananda Swami - he practically knows NOTHING beyond this horrific training. I am not excusing him in the least for any faults - but he is not a kali chela as you infer. He has been "off by degree" from his very earliest start in Krsna Consciousness. We all were to some degree as Srila Prabhupada was "filtered" to the vast vast majority.

fixing all this needs to incorporate a degree of understanding in the effects of all "beliefs" that are NOT informed by the absolute purity of the GURU - who as I said "IS NOT A MORTAL ERRING CREATURE LIKE OURSELVES'. For Radhanatha swami to have erred soooo egregiously - he either is incredibly evil or incredibly invested in his "beliefs". Solving these problems should commence with our considering that the geneisis of them all is "true belief" in THE FALSE PREMISE OF MAYAVADI that passes for pure representation of THE ACHARYA.

In fact his plight - IS the proverbial CAUTIONARY TALE - in this respect.

According to the account of Krsna dasa, he says: "This testimony by Dharmatma clearly implicates Radhanath in the murder of Sulocana. Radhanatha was involved in arranging for the murder, being one of those who were "pushing like crazy for murder to happen", possibly the leader. His leadership position in the conspiracy against Sulocana is confirmed also by his picking-up the escape money, together with Kirtanananda.

Is it offensive to criticise Radhanath for murdering genuine devotees? If not, than why is Krishna Kirti dasa saying:

"Oops, the rest of us are all fools, so I guess it's OK for your to criticize us, and that's your "loving service" to guru and Krishna."

Is it "loving service" to guru and Krishna by keeping and worshipping murder-gurus Like Radhanath, Kirtanananda, Bhaktitirtha, etc.?

Why is Krishna Kirti das equalizing "sinister-devotees, "kalichela-devotees" murder-devotees" etc. with real genuine devotees? who are being constantly harassed, beaten, abused, kicked out and murdered?

Srila Prabhupada just told us to discriminate. Why Krishna Kirti dasa is saying that we, who are being abused by the sinister movement, are creating the most slander. Why is the abused person a slanderer and not the abuser? It gets me really bewildered here.

These are all more of the same "begging" the question prabhu.
They all answer themselves.

3. Question

Krishna Kirti dasa writes: Why don't you all separate yourselves from ISKCON and form your own society, your own organization instead of hanging around here and slandering devotees?"

This even confuses me more. Besides the fact, that the sinister Iskcon (which is in our society, as Prabhupada states) has kicked out almost all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples, yet why should a sincere disciple leave Srila Prabhupadas genuine Iskcon house, just because he criticized the sinister Iskcon within it?

Shouldn't it be the other way around? That the sinister devotees should leave the genuine Iskcon? Why do I have to leave my fathers house and leave that house to murder gurus like Radhanatha, Kirtanananda and others? Do I have no right to live in that house? Should I freely give it up to murder-gurus? Is it offensive trying to stay in that house? If not, than why is Krishna Kirti dasa saying that we should leave?

Why do we all have to separate from our gurus genuine Iskcon, which is being taken over by a sinister movement in our movement. Didn't Srila Prabhupada said the opposite: namely that those who want to be successor gurus should go outside and form their own Temple. So why Krishna Kirti dasa is saying that we all should leave and form our own Iskcon? Which Iskcon does he mean? Is it the sinister movement in our Society or is it the genuine Iskcon movement which Srila Prabhupada discriminates from the sinister movent?

Thank for clearing my doubts and answering these questions. I really hope, that Krishna Kirti can clear up my confusion.

See the above discussion on ISKCON and what constitutes it in the real sense.

Praghosa das - NYC

Urdhvaga das

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Comment by PADA: Dear prabhus, Krishna Kirti's apparent plan is really amazing: when a fool comes to your church and claims to be the combined re-incarnation of Elvis and Jesus of Nazareth, and he is often found to "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children," and he wants the keys to the safe so he can grab all the money for his private expenses and opulent home etc., and he wants a few dozen of the young church children to give him "special massages" etc. ... no problem, just hand over the keys to your church and leave, and "go start another church." And of course Narayana Maharaja has been the biggest advisor to this foolish project's process, even giving it a "rasika" face.

This is absolutely astonishing. When the children of ISKCON were being mass molested we were told "do not criticize the GBC's gurus and their 'shastric advisors' like Sridhara and Narayana maharaja (sometimes called the molester messiahs regime), just go away and form your own society." Sridhara said "none should protest" and Narayana Maharaja said we were poison for protesting. Gaura Keshava simply says we need to help the biggest promoters of this odious process like Basu Ghosa.

So we should have allowed the children of ISKCON to be molested and "do not criticize prabhu." What is truly amazing here is that after all this criminal action has been allowed under the plea of "do not criticize, just leave and let crimes run rampant" -- and so many thousands of children were victimized, the deviants still do not admit that we have been correct to try to protect children, rather: they are proud of the mess they created?

And when did Srila Prabhupada tell us that when there are CRIMINAL troubles in his movement, and his children are being CRIMINALLY victimized, to abandon his children and his movement, and let his ISKCON go into the tank and be filled with CRIMINAL activity? All of the work Srila Prabhupada did should be abandoned and allowed to wither, degrade and deteriorate, and no one should defend his guru and the movement of his guru? Where is this stated in shastra?

Notice, the bottom line here is that we should either aid and abet criminal actions in the name of the parampara, or we should neglect criminal actions and be guilty of criminal negligence. Is this the proper way to manage a spiritual institution? And why hasn't Basu Ghosa and Gaura Keshava been able to find a better guru for Krishna Kirti than the founder father, head prophet, and general most vociferous advocate of the molester messiahs project, namely Hrdayananda, who also helped reinstate Bhavananda in 1986. You mean they have no better guru than this to recommend even to their friends and associates? Thanks pd]

Yes indeed! if only one bonafide spiritiual master had been present, not one gurula child would have been molested. Apparently kanistha gurus cannot even protect themselves, what to speak of protecting the innocent children in their care! What use is a "guru" who cannot comprehend "para dukha dukhi"? nnv das

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Dear Praghosa Prabhu

I would like to thank you for answering the questions that I have asked to Krishna Kirti.

Since I am a German bodied soul, English is NOT my first language. Therefore I also could not understand why you are calling my questions - dumbass - So I looked up the Google Seach Engine to figure out what dumbass means. So Google gave me 5 answers:

What does dumbass mean ?

Answerer 1: A person is both stupid (e.g. dumb) while also stubbornly refusing to stop being stupid when asked (e.g. ***)
A person of ignorance or arrogance.
A person who thinks they know something and refuses to accept the truth of their knowledge
dumb = stupid
ass = jackass, butt hole
it's profanity so don't say it unless you're aorundcasul

Answerer 2: "Dumb ass" is American slang meaning that the person is not very intelligent or has done something stupid

Answerer 3: dumb ass -stupid donkey. An insulting word to say you are stupid.

Answerer 4: means stupid, jackass, idiot

Answerer 5: These words are used to express a low opinion of someone's intelligence

Thank you for calling me a stupid idiot, donkey and jackass who is ignorant about the truth.

I have to admit defeat against so much intelligence of yours. I am only wondering why my dumbass questions are preached and practised within Iskcon? If they are so dumb, than why devotees are doing these dumb activities and afterwards justifying them with such dumb answers and excuses?

How much dumbass is Gaura Keshava, Krishna Kirti, Trivikrama, Basu Ghosh, Pancaratna, Sankarshana, etc for their idiotic "siddhanta" and mayavadi philosophy?

Sure you can see this Radhanath-murderer as a victim of his own stupidity who believes that he is a pure devotee and excuse him for this. But this does not help the murdered devotee.

He is a "True Believer" and this malady is shared by a very large % of the world's population. His training is from the KIng of Posers - Kirtanananda Swami - he practically knows NOTHING beyond this horrific training. I am not excusing him in the least for any faults - but he is not a kali chela as you infer. He has been "off by degree" from his very earliest start in Krsna Consciousness. We all were to some degree as Srila Prabhupada was "filtered" to the vast vast majority.

You write: he practically knows NOTHING beyond this horrific training. You mean that he knows nothing beyond murdering other devotees? Than why Iskcon is worshiping him as guru, as good as god? Are they all dumbasses?

You write that this Radhanath-murderer is NOT a kali-chela, only a True Believer.

He has been "off by degree" from his very earliest start in Krsna Consciousness. We all were to some degree as Srila Prabhupada was "filtered" to the vast vast majority.

What you mean by: He has been "off by degree" from his very earliest start in Krsna Consciousness. We all were to some degree ??

Sorry but I have to protest your insinuation, that I had similarly been off by some degree.

I still don't understand why murderers are only True believers? They believe that murdering devotees is service to Krishna for which they have to be worshiped? I thought that murderers belong into jail.

Is Radhanath-murderer a dumbass like myself? And those who worship him, are they also dumbass?

Sorry, but I believe my English is not good enough to understand your logic.

Hare Krishna
Urdhvaga das