1) ABOUT GBC LIST (NNV)
2) Subject: HDG says what HDG means
3) MORE DEATH THREATS UPDATE (Sudarsan)
4) Tweaking the Laural and Hardy Syndrome/ Radha Krishna dasa

Dear folks, PAMHO. AGTSP.

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1) ABOUT GBC LIST
From: Naranarayan Visvakarma dasa
To: "pada"

Dear PADA,

PAMHO, AGTSP!

Many of your readers have noted that you did not distinguish between those
"GBC's" who were DULY ELECTED under the terms of their legal charter, and
those who CREATED DICTATORIAL POWERS for themselves by falsely stating that
they were "lifetime appointed GBCs."

[PADA: First, we have to identify ALL of the GBC members, including those
who have been members in the past. Some were "appointed" to that post by
Srila Prabhupada and yet they deviated, which a few have compared to Judas
or Gaudiya Matha betrayers, while others were "voted in" by other GBCs
later, yet they are less implicated in the corruption and so on and so
forth. Our initial purpose is thus to first identify ALL the membership
from the inception till now, then make a small explanation of their roles
and positions.

We think this is not, at this point anyway, a purely charter vote issue,
nor is it a time-line issue, nor is it even necessarily a legal issue,
...but it is clearly a heart-line issue. In sum, a few past and present GBC
would still perhaps like to have us killed, others still think we are
deviants who should be banned, others are neutral, others are sympathetic,
others will hug us, others have thanked us for launching the poison
investigation and so on. It is individual.

Of course even karmis write us, even a few days ago, hoping for our
welfare, saying how dangerous it is to go up against a violent pedo-pooja
cult. In short they are concerned for our welfare. Yet few GBC, past or
present, has expressed things like this? So we get the general feeling from
the GBC overall, past and present, that we pada-ites would be like running
over a three year old kid on a tricycle with their 80 ton Sherman tank, and
the biggest problem would not be their role in our departure, but that they
would have to hose some blood off their tank. I just hate when we have to
hose off old bruiser!]

NNV: Many readers of PADA now want clarification on how anyone can be
referred to "even in jest" as GBC if they are not duly elected following
the procedure of Srila Prabhupada's Order of Management?

[PADA: The leaders all along have been claiming to be GBC and also many
have been claiming to be Krishna's successive gurus, sum totals of the
demigods and thus Yamaraja's boss. So, we use these terms since they use
them, but only in order to make sense of what is going on. Just like Srila
Prabhupada also refers to leaders, priests, gurus and so on, but he then
qualifies with the context if he thinks whether they are bona fide or not,
and so on. Anyone who reads our material is familiar with our context, and
as such, is in no illusion that we think the current "GBC and guru" program
is the one "directed" by Srila Prabhupada. Besides, very few past or
present GBC seem to have really got a good idea what is a guru, or even,
what is a moral person, what to speak of what is the order of management?
We have to walk before we can run.]

NNV: Please modify your list to reflect which are REAL GBC's and which are
PIRATE GBC's. A lot of your readers have been asking for this distinction
to be clarified by PADA.

[PADA: The "piracy" started even when Srila Prabhupada was here, hence the
poison issue has evolved. The piracy continues because many of the hands on
the deck of the pirate's ship, such as many past and present GBC, have not
taken a public stand against the piracy. For example, out of all the past
and present GBC, it is mainly one of them, Balavanta dasa, who has taken a
semi-public stance against the poisoning, but his report is wishy-washy.

Is this what he is saying? "The whispers say 'poison,' but the meaning is
not clear." Not clear? What is the "good usage" of the word "poison" in the
context that Srila Prabhupada also says he is being poisoned? Not clear?
Why? And why is there so much arsenic? What is not clear here? What IS
clear here is that he is still weak about going after his brethren GBC.
This also occured with the insulting of Draupadi. Out of 100 brothers only
one spoke out a little bit in her defense, and shastra says that he got a
little mercy later from Krishna. So Srila Prabhupada says, they all had to
die for the severe crime of --not speaking up.

They were in direct or indirect complicity, and as such they ALL went down,
and they are ALL recorded for ALL time as being a part of the malefic,
devious, pernicious, evil, malicious, poisoner party of Duryodhana. To sum,
those who have supported the poisoners of Srila Prabhupada party are
destined to go down, it is just inevitable, albeit perhaps some of them
were appointed to a post at one time or another. And so far, not one single
GBC, past or present, has joined us in public protest of the enforced cult
ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophiles program and supported pada in
public, and we know the pedo-pooja was merely the next layer of poisonous
insult after they poisoned him physically.

In fact, the first act of the 1986 reformers was to excommunicate
Sulochana, and then the GBC said Kirtanananda is like Jesus? So, let us see
how they respond in court? Mr. Rabindra, didn't many of you know that
Kirtanananda had homosexual tendencies? Didn't you all see him in public,
that Kirtanananda was covered by the hands of little boys and this was on
CBS news? And didn't Jane Wallace of CBS news say this looks like
homosexual pedophilia to the pada editor? And little boys were jumping in
and out of his cottage with the adults ordered to stay away? So tell us
once again why you wanted his party to vote you in as his and God's
successor? And why did you attack Kirtanananda's exposers, leading perhaps
to their being murdered? And why is your best guru pal: Satsvarupa, the guy
who said that Kirtanananda is like Jesus?

Of course, what to speak then of Yamaraja's court.... "Hmmm, lets see: Your
brothers poisoned your father, sat pedophiles into his seat, then forced
children to worship these pedophiles as good as God, or get banned, beat
and killed, and your supported, acquiesed, or did nothing and thus you are
incriminated --severely-- in the poisoner's and homo-pooja project? Your
supported poisoners and homo-pooja? And you said this is what Srila
Prabhupada wanted? And you said that these homo-sex mongers are
"Vishnupadas," sum totals of the demigods, and as such: THEY ARE MY
ACHARYA! And even after the evidence was out, you were weak or silent"?

Yep, tell it to the judge. You go only one way from this point: down. And
you are not heard from for a long time. Unless you come out making big
efforts to compensate and right away.... Anyway! That is why we want to
make a short info-guide on each person and handle them on an individual
basis, which we think is the only fair method. Your suggestions below are
going in the right direction...]

FURTHER CORRECTIONS"

7. Bali Mardan: (......Marsden)

19. Bhavananda: (Charles Baccus)

39. Jayapataka: (Jay.......) He hired a foul "sweeper" to cook for the
Deities in Calcutta as well as the devotees. Srila Prabhupada said that if
the devotees ate the food cooked by the sweeper, that they would die, and
that Jayapataka would be responsible for their deaths ...Jayapataka REFUSED
to fire the sweeper, and was whining ...but praHHHHBUPADA ...!in his
horrible nasal voice.

47. Malati: (.....Spoelstra) She is a well known lesbian who is HIV
positive due to IC drug use well after her initiation. She will naturally
support homosexuals and drug users.

67. Satsvarupa: (Steven Guarino) Created "bogus" biography of Srila
Prabhupada and then burned the transcripts and tapes of 3,000 Prabhupada
disciples so that his "biography" could never be re-written. (These 3,000
taped "oral history" interviews are technically superior to the Gospels of
the New Testament, as they are first hand, contemporaneous,and truly
accurate due to being first generation recordings). His wanton destruction
of this invaluable historic source places the word "criminal" in a new
realm of definition.

69. Sri Ram, (Not Jayaram Swami) is Thomas Klimek

Please help your readers understand WHO ARE THE ELECTED GBC AND WHO ARE NOT.
Your eternal servant,
NNV das

===================

2) Subject: HDG says what HDG means

Dear Pada
What is it that spurs CHAKRA into permanent "defensive" mode? Is it VNN?
No! Of course not! VNN is far to busy promoting the personal vendetta
against Malati dd by Mahavegavati dd. Or Niscala dd's tussle with her IRG
ghosts, which she uses as a platform to promote her "Kundali guru."

[PADA: We have asked Kundali for the past three years to identify his
current living guru and he has none. He is a big fraud. He says you need a
living guru, but he has no living guru. He is another version of the
similar speaking Kailash chandra, who also has no name for guru. This is
impersonalism says Srila Prabhupada, atheism. All glories to the God. What
God? Bal Krishna 33 years old claiming to be 16 years old and hamburger eater?]

* All this nonsense is going on, beside the "spiritual element" or the
"ambrosial" realizations of some wanna-b-guru or half-baked-babaji. So why
then is CHAKRA always on the back foot? Is it PADA? The constantly
niggling- never let them forget it- in your face- say it as it is- PADA? We
have no doubt that it is.

Even when slashing out at adversaries by name, CHAKRA is extremely careful
not to mention the dreaded "PADA." Yes! Yes! We know that a serious attempt
(by word of mouth) has/is and always will be made to bring this
international announcer into disrepute. But the facts are; (1) There just
isn't anybody around who is giving the "source" like PADA. (2) The GBC have
admitted to "criminal activities," but if you want to know the
details...PADA. (3) Archives full of unadulterated facts...PADA. (4) A raw
basic approach to "tattva," without the baubles bangles and beads of false
vaisnava sentiments...PADA. (5) The only therapeutic facility for devotees
who have been robbed and beaten by iskcon thugs...PADA. (6) The only
devotee website that does not hide behind "political correctness" or
"editorial policy"...PADA. (7) Where is the only place on the internet,
that provides a facility for those who are clean to speak their mind, while
those who "pretend" to be clean... never dare tread?...PADA. Is this why
CHAKRA tries (as best it can) to avoid giving PADA a plug?

[PADA: Well, they know we could make their story public in other ways, so
they are avoiding a too direct confrontation.]

* CHAKRA'S current "Top Story" entitled "Smoking Gun Evidence" by a certain
Prabhupada Das (PD), is an example of an ongoing "desperate defense" by
CHAKRA. A grasping at straws. After preparing the listener to believe he is
about to deliver a coup de grace to the "poison controversy," PD turns out
to be; just another iskcon fruit-cake. But what's truly bizarre, is that
CHAKRA gives it "Top Story" billing. PD writes (as if setting up his
opposition for the "kill") :-

"WE ALL ACCEPT SRILA PRABHUPADA AS JAGAT GURU (right?). WE ACCEPT WHAT HE SAYS/ WHAT HE WRITES AS AUTHORITATIVE-THE LAST WORD, THE FINAL JUDGEMENT."

But of course we do! We ACCEPT the July 9th letter. We acknowledge the
AUTHORITY of the Final Order. We understand Srila Prabhupada's WILL to be
the LAST WORD and the May 28th Appointment tape to be His FINAL JUDGEMENT.
We also believe His statement "Vahi bat...je koi hamko poison kiya.".....
So what's next?

[PADA: Prabhupada dasa, even if he is a real person, implies that we said
that Srila Prabhupada was killed with poison. We never said that. We said
that he was administered poison. Moreover, even Jesus was not really
killed. Moreover, no one can be killed because they are eternal. Moreover,
many of the folks fighting on the battle of Kurukshetra were "killed," even
great devotees and Krishna's relatives. What we are saying here is that a
pure devotee may be attacked. That is the whole point. Srila Prabhupada was
attacked.]

* Now CHAKRA's PD, after promising us a great salvo; fires his pop-gun. PRABHUPADA SAYS: "KRSNA CANNOT BE KILLED BY POISON. EVEN KRSNA'S DEVOTEES ARE NOT KILLED BY POISON," (Conversations with SP Vol 5, pg 277)

How has this air-head failed (considering all the to-ing and fro-ing on
this issue) to have heard, or read Srila Prabhupada expressing the opinion
that His own Guru Maharaja was poisoned. Surely someone at CHAKRA could
have explained to this pop-gunner, what Srila Prabhupada meant was: "He
reasons ill who tells that vaisnavas die....." Of course, if this "jnana
sumudra" doesn't agree with this obvious fact; he can always take a ten cc
syringe full of arsenic and give his "guru" a butt-full. Or better still
try the whole damn gbc. Maybe then, the bells will ring.

Srila Prabhupada: "So as Krsna was attempted to be killed...And as Lord
Jesus Christ was killed. So they may kill ME also." (lecture May 3rd ' 76
Honolulu).

Why is CHAKRA publishing this rubbish as "Top Story" news? Why does the
editor of CHAKRA, take words like "VAHI BAT" which is a commonly used Hindi
dictum meaning: "Same old story" to be translated as a "particular
discussion?" Is it any wonder that some guy out there is going crazy and
threatening to rip-up the editor's rear end.

In closing, may I offer my hand in friendship and gratitude to PADA. Maybe
the editor can suggest how, in some way, we can make his burdensome task
easier. We may not be wealthy, some are poor with large families and
commitments, but I am sure we can all help in some small way. If ever we
need to muster for Srila Prabhupada, PADA is the only place it can be done
quickly. If ever we need a point from which to march forward; it's PADA.
Therefore it is to our advantage to keep PADA fully afloat.
There are many highly intelligent devotees like Radha Krsna Prabhu, Isa
Dasa Prabhu, Kulashekara Prabhu and Puranjana Prabhu himself contributing
articles that make riveting reading. It would be really enlightening to
know; just how many "peekers" PADA would get on a "Daily Newsdesk" if these
devotees were regular contributors (just wishing Prabhu...just wishing).
Namaskar & Dandavats.

=====================

3) MORE DEATH THREATS UPDATE
(Sudarshan Dasa)
To: angel108b@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 1:37 PM
Subject: PRABHUPADA SAYS: LEGAL ACTION
WAKE UP MY FOLLOWERS****PART I

Dear Maharajas, Prabhus and All Prabhupada Followers,

PAMHO. ALL GLORIES TO ISKCON FOUNDER ACARYA HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C.BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA, MAHA BHAGAVATA SAVIOUR OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

The GBC'S have rejected Reconciliation. They have rejected Srila
Prabhupada's *will*,
His July 9th 1977 Final Order Letter to All GBC'S and Temple Presidents,
and His Direction Of Management 1970. They are above the Law?

Tamal Swami intentionally created a "pile up" of Bhaktas in 1977, rejecting
Srila Prabhupada's ORDERS, to have them all initiated as His Disciples by
the Ritvik System that was going on in ISKCON for many years. Srila
Prabhupada was now *in their way.* If they had continued to initiate
everyone, on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, in His last days, just before Srila
Prabhupada gave up His body, there would not have been a big crowd to "take
over" and to have as their own disciples. This is the "coup" that has
*cursed* their lives by offending the Master that came to save them.

The GBC's formed their own registered body, whereby only they can be
members. GBC FOR LIFE AS FIDEL CASTRO [so the corrupt ones cannot be
removed]. And they misused Srila Prabhupada's statement that they are the
*ultimating managing authority*. Srila Prabhupada warned them not to do
that. At one point He dissolved the entire GBC. [refer "Betrayal" by Puranjana].

Below is a letter in response to a recent Death Threat, the same old 23
year long story of ISKCON.

BOYNES & Co.
ATTORNEYS-AT-LAW
15th March, 2000.
Mr. Persad/Pursottama Dasa,
Prabhupada-Edinburgh Road,
Longdenville.

Dear Sir,
Re: Threats made to Mr. Ashram Seesochan a.k.a. Sudarshan Dasa
We act on behalf of Mr. Ashram Seesochan in connection with the above
matter. Our instructions are that you have embarked upon a campaign to
intimidate our client on the basis that he holds certain religious beliefs
which are contrary to your own. We are futher instructed that in this
regard you have used obscene and abusive language against our client and
futher that you have made threats of physical violence against him by
threatening to "knock him down".

We are told that these threats have been issued against the background of
our client being forbidden to attend ISKCON centres by the Longdenville
Temple where you are a member. We are to advise you that you conduct
aforesaid is unlawful. We call upon you to immediately desist from such
behaviour or communication which seeks to harrass or infringe on the
religious freedom and individual liberties of Mr. Seesochan. Any futher
threat made by you or any other member of your temple against our client
would be met with the fullest force of the law.

We are to reiterate that you have absolutely no authority to seek to
prohibit our client from expressing his constitutionally protected right of
freedom of speech and of religious worship. Should you fail to comply with
the above directive we have Mr. Seesochan's firm instructions to institute
legal proceedings against you without futher notice. Please be guided
accordingly. Yours faithfully, Boynes & Co. Ronald L. Boynes.

I have paid armed security. The few devotees paying loans to me for monies
borrowed, must call by phone before coming. It is a shame in Trinidad, that persons
who occupies high Government offices and identified with ISKCON, could see
newspapers publication of how nasty the leaders in ISKCON are, 1,000
children abused by homosex swamis, 5 murders ----swami in jail for life.
Swami's head chopped off by disciple. 11 men hijacking Acarya Prabhupada in
a tape conversation, to seize power, control, exploit and mislead over 1
million followers worldwide. Swami's thiefing millions of dollars, while
blind followers work like asses for free.

It is just like Judas and his gang betraying Jesus Christ, who became more glorified. Similarly, when the whole world knows, that it's just 11 men, spreading their disease to other ambitious leaders, like aids, THEY WILL LOVE AND APPRECIATE SRILA PRABHUPADA FOR GIVING HIS LIFE. AND IT WILL BE AN END TO ALL THE CHEATERS.

The personality occupying the office of the Attorney General, walked in
Harinam 2 years ago. And 3 years ago just before incorporation, 8 ministers
spoke very well of Srila Prabhupada. Sesa Prabhu dynamically glorified
Srila Prabhupada in that flim. I
paid to show it on television, introducing it with Srila Prabhupada's
unique poem --
"Markine Bhagavata Dharma." Many people who thinks that "Srila Prabhupada
is not the *right* personality" predicted to fulfill this mission by Srila
Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, should at least try
to re-read this poem.

And even Srila Bhaktisidanta Sarasvati Thakura left His followers bewildered, not telling them that Abhay Charan Prabhupada IS THE PREDICTED PERSONALITY, WHO WILL SPREAD THE HOLY NAMES IN EVERY TOWN AND VILLAGE ALL OVER THE WORLD. And Srila Prabhupada is giving THE WHOLE WORLD ACCESS TO THE ENTIRE GURU PARAMPARA. Not just the handful of ISKCON devotees.

(Srila Prabhupada letter to Sudama,Los Angeles, 17/2/70). "Lord Caitanya said that every village and town on the surface of the world will know the message of the Sankirtan Movement. This very statement affirms that in every village and town all over the world THERE ARE MANY CANDIDATES WHO ARE *AWAITING THIS MESSAGE*." (courtesy Kapindra Swami)

So what these leaders are doing???? WHY DON'T THEY STOP CHANGING SRILA PRABHUPADA'S BOOKS, RE-WRITING HIS BHAGAVAD GITA, SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM, AND CAITANYA CARITAMRTA? AND GO DO HARINAMA SANKIRTAN ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!! The power for name, fame, pride, and adoration is so destructive!!!! But the Truth will expose and destroy *this envy of the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna.* WE NEED A FULL FBI INVESTIGATION IN THIS MOVEMENT!!!!

This is why I told Kundali Prabhu to go and make the whole of Grenada (his
Prabhu Datta Desa), Followers of Srila Prabhupada. People are suffering.
They don't care about if one is a Scholar or not. And while the gurukula
boys were having anal surgery, Tamal Swami and Hridayananda Swami were
going to Universities. Madness.

By Srila Prabhupada's *GRACE*, one can cross the ocean of material
suffering and obtain the *MERCY* of Krsna. He can open our darkened eyes
and fill our heart with *Transdental Knowledge*. He is our Lord *birth
after birth*. But many think that we can just put Prabhupada aside and run
the show. (kill guru and become guru----finished).

(S.B.Lecture 3.26.18.Bombay 27/12/74)
"So this Movement is so important.Somehow or other if you can engage them
in chanting and dancing, the whole world will be united.What the United
Nations has failed, this movement can do -- IF IT IS NOT CHECKED BY THE
RASCALS. BUT THE RASCALS ARE READY TO CHECK THIS MOVEMENT.
That is the difficulty. Otherwise, God, Krsna, is always ready to help us." Thank You.
Hare Krsna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada ------->>>>.
Your insignificant servant,
in the service of Srila Prabhupada,
Sudarshan Dasa.

===========

4) Tweaking the Laural and Hardy Syndrome/ Radha Krishna dasa

Devotees are among the most intelligent people on the planet, (supposed to
be the most intelligent) and therefore discussion with devotees must be
rational and consistent, or else they feel their intelligence is insulted
by absurdity. Therefore we must purge our siddhanta from inconsistent
thoughts about what Srila Prabhupada said on guru tattva.

The history of this discussion, or debate, is replete with wounded feelings
and condescension and hostility expressed towards the devotees of the Lord,
which is very unfortunate and spiritually unhealthy for all concerned.
Therefore we hope to present data of the ongoing saga in a rational method,
hoping to present facts without exciting any more anger and resentment from
devotees, because only by civilized discussion of the facts, may we all
become enlightened as to what Srila Prabhupada wanted.

Assumptions, interpretation, opinions and theories are not viable agents
for progressive revelation of the truth. So often an assumption will be
mistaken for a valid premise in arguments, which only keeps us in a
perpetual "fine mess." Its like a Laurel and Hardy movie, where Ollie was
always saying "another fine mess you’ve got us in," to Stan, as Ollie taps
his fingers and Stan blubbers and whines. We’re like Ollie, always thinking
the other prabhu is the ninny who can’t figure out what guru tattva is.
We’re all on the ninny platform when we continue to postulate and make
assumption and false premises without careful reference to the actual
teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Therefore, we must agree that assumptions, interpretation, opinions and
theories has "kept us in a fine mess." We must separate these assumptions
from the real understanding of guru tattva given by Srila Prabhupada. We
get a repeated challenge to produce "guru, sastra, sadhu" like they think
they’ve got us over a barrel, but they will be surprised to know that
sastra is a two way street in these regards.

The purpose of this paper is to scrutinize and separate assumptions from
the actual teachings of Srila Prabhupada, and reject other opinions
different from Srila Prabhupada’s opinion, etc. We will show that Srila
Prabhupada was consistent in his orders and teachings on guru tattva, and
this is consistent with his recorded statements on his plan for the future
system of initiation.

Axiom- Srila Prabhupada is the sole ultimate authority for all devotees in
Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada is the founder acarya for Iskcon and therefore he
is the ultimate authority on all philosophical issues, and he is the last
word in guru tattva. His orders on any issue, especially on guru tattva,
are final. They must be obeyed by all members of Iskcon. His disciples are
ETERNALLY his disciples and are not allowed to propagate any second
opinion. NO TWO OPINIONS. Quote from Cc Adi-lila 12.9, Text- Some of the
disciples strictly accepted the orders of the acarya, and others deviated,
independently concocting their own opinions under the spell of daivi maya.
Purport by Srila Prabhupada - "This verse describes the beginning of a
schism. When disciples do not stick to the principle of accepting the order
of their spiritual master, immediately there are TWO opinions. Any opinion
different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless." Here is our
main point, we do not accept useless
assumptions and second opinions, only Srila Prabhupada’s opinion.

Unclear ideas under debate:

A. The diksa guru appointment idea. This is the claim that 11 disciples
were appointed to be diksa gurus by Srila Prabhupada, before he left the
planet, and then multiple acaryas were authorized to be voted by 2/3 of GBC
to be diksa gurus. That disciples are natural heirs to post of acarya after
his guru leaves the planet. The claim that these ideas are Srila
Prabhupada’s orders and teachings is still very unclear for many disciples.

B. The ritvik representation of Srila Prabhupada idea. Devotees cite the
7/9 directive to the whole movement as evidence of Srila Prabhupada’s final
order on the future of initiations in ISKCON, and the 5/28 taped
conversation, and his WILL are in support to the 7/9 letter. There is still
confusion by devotees on these 3 items. The purpose of this paper is to try
to elucidate the consistent facts from the assumptions.

What actual orders did Srila Prabhupada make to his society on guru tattva
and the process for initiations after he leaves the planet? The 7/9 letter
is clearly some kind of order to the whole society. Whose order was it?

The 7/9 letter was written on his LETTERHEAD, contained his SIGNATURE, and
thus has his APPROVAL to the contents, and the letter came from his OFFICE
of founder acarya. The secretary may have typed it, or composed some words,
but it was an order from Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps Srila Prabhupada was too
weak to compose, (he never typed), still he was the author of his order.
Just as in the early days, he asked Hayagriva to compose some essays, still
he approved the contents of such. This is very different from ordinary
essays, this was a worldwide directive to the whole society.

Definition of Founder acarya - A prominent acarya empowered by Krishna to
be the founder of a bona-fide Vaisnava branch of Lord Chaitanya’s sankirtan
movement within this universe. Such empowered devotee of Krishna is fully
authorized to direct his society by issuing orders and teachings to his
followers, and such directives and orders are to be honored for as long as
such a branch of Lord Chaitanya’s tree exists. Such a great acarya is
non-different from Krishna, being his bona-fide representative, being able
to deliver his followers from maya and lead them back to godhead.

Definition of a secretary - A person in charge of records, correspondence,
doing routine office work, typing, filing, answering phones, assisting in
communication to and from the office. No corporation in the world would
honor a claim by a secretary as to authorship of a major worldwide
corporate directive, which, although, is typed and signed by the secretary,
but also signed by the president, on corporate letterhead.
This needs no further elucidation.

The letter and order is from the founder acarya, not the secretary. Srila
Prabhupada is telling us what to do in this letter, by the power of his
signature on his letterhead, which has his approval to the contents of the
letter, and therefore it is an order from him, to the whole movement. Thus
compliance to such an order is mandatory for all members in the movement.
Still, such a clear order is challenged by some devotees by question as to
the time element, if it was temporary or permanent, and thus we shall try
to point out the consistencies and inconsistencies of both points of view.
* * * *

Now we will examine the books and other recorded words of Srila Prabhupada,
and sastra, and guru, and sadhu, and determine what is consistent with
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on the idea of either diksa gurus or the idea
of ritvik representation of Srila Prabhupada. THE BOOKS (and recorded
words) of Srila Prabhupada-

A. For the idea of "order for diksa gurus"- We cannot find evidence of
Srila Prabhupada speaking of authorization of "diksa gurus" in his books,
although he writes that he wants all of us to become gurus, but the
context fits in the category of "siska" gurus, and not "diksa" gurus. This
is clearly evident in the ‘amara ajnaya guru hana’ verse from the
Caitanya-Caritamrta, or Lord Chaitanya’s mandate for devotees to "become
guru and deliver the land." Srila Prabhupada’s purport makes it clear that
such a guru is a siksa guru, and says "best not accept disciples."

Some claim- "there's no evidence in the books for ritvik, but there’s much
evidence for diksa gurus." But the ‘amara’ verse defeats this. Also, from
Adi-lila 1.46: "..the spiritual master is always considered either one of
the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested
representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu." And - "When one has attained
the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and
worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a
person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330,
purport) - Note: from these statements, we understand that Srila Prabhupada
could not have "appointed" or "ordered" the original 11 men, or anybody to
be such a "confidential associate of Srimati Radharani." How could they be
"ordered' when 7 of them fall down hard? And the total count, to date, is
around 30 fallen gurus. Srila Prabhupada said that the bona fide acarya
does not fall down. Srila Prabhupada - "There is no
possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." (C.c. Madhya,
22.71) "A spiritual master is always liberated." (Letter to TKG)

So, in Srila Prabhupada’s books and letters, not only do we not find any
orders for diksa gurus, but we also find prohibitions for ambitious and
unqualified men to aspire to be guru prematurely, before they are ordered
by their guru. Srila Prabhupada: "Try to understand. Don't go very
speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all.
Otherwise nobody can become guru." (Lec. 10/28/75) This was in 1975,
meaning that there is no blanket order for diksa gurus. This is confirmed
in the 5/28/77 conversation where Srila Prabhupada said, "when I order"
(you become regular guru), which means, still in 77, there were still no
orders for diksa gurus.

B. The idea of Srila Prabhupada’s order of a ritvik system- Just like the
lack of "diksa" guru evidence, there is a lack for "ritvik" evidence also.
They both lack evidence. This makes them equal for lack of direct evidence,
perhaps suggesting that Srila Prabhupada meant to make his direct orders
when the time came. This we saw in 1977, (details later.)

The PRINCIPLE taught by Srila Prabhupada is that the PRESENCE of the
bona-fide diksa guru is not important to the execution of the transmission
of diksa to the qualified candidate for diksa initiation. This supports the
ritvik principle. Just a few of several quotes- "Physical presence is not
important." (SP Room conversation, 6/10/77, Vrindavan) and "Physical
presence is immaterial." (SP Letter, 19/1/67) -".the Spiritual Master also
can be present wherever the disciple wants. A Spiritual Master is the
principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of
places by the principle of relay monitoring." (Letter Malati 5/28/68)

GURU
A. For the idea of "appointment of diksa gurus"-
Since we covered the books, etc., then the remaining evidence is the direct
orders from Srila Prabhupada. We have just a few recorded statements made
by Srila Prabhupada in 1977. The 5/28 tape and the 7/9 letter, and his
WILL. The diksa proponents claim that the 5/28 tape is "THE ORDER" for
diksa gurus. But they forget to mention that Srila Prabhupada said, "when I
order" which means no order was given at that time. There is no mention of
diksa in the letter or WILL. So far, we find no evidence in his books or
words, nor in the 3 evidences of 1977, about ordering diksa gurus.

B. For the idea of Srila Prabhupada’s order of a ritvik system- We have
just a few recorded statements made by Srila Prabhupada in 1977. The 5/28
tape and the 7/9 letter, and his WILL, all three supporting the ritvik
contention. He said "officiating acharyas" for the answer to Satsvarupa,
pertaining to initiations ‘after he leaves the planet.’ Tamal asked if it
was ritvik, and Srila Prabhupada said "yes." The letter is all about
ritviks, or representatives of Srila Prabhupada, and they are HIS
disciples. The WILL says only "my disciples" can be directors, and "no
change in management." It is a clean sweep for the ritvik contention in
these few recorded statements.

The time factor is the main question in these evidences. Clearly, the 5/28
statement is in direct reference to "when Srila Prabhupada is no longer
with us." This is a very clear question, and Srila Prabhupada answered very
clearly, indicating he "shall recommend some officiating acharyas." The
WILL is clearly for the future, after departure, that’s what a legal will
is. The letter indicates a perpetual continuity with the word,
"henceforth." But the case is not solely dependent on this word, as some
claim. When an acarya gives an order, it is to be obeyed until further
notice. That is the principle. And since the letter is a direct link to the
5/28 statement, being the natural conclusion to Srila Prabhupada’s promise
for "officiating acharyas," then the time context is clearly for the
future. In other words, if the letter is the
result of the 5/28 promise, then it shares the same future time context.
So, the ritvik system, "after he is no longer with us," is clearly
established in these 3 evidences.

SASTRA - (practically the same as Srila Prabhupada’s books) 1. For the idea
of "disciples are automatic heirs to be guru after the disappearance of
their guru."
TKG made the claim, in the Topanga talks, that Srila Prabhupada’s disciples
are natural heirs to be diksa gurus after he leaves the planet, and this is
one of the biggest arguments of the GBC. But we can’t find this anywhere in
Srila Prabhupada’s books or instructions, or in any sastra. Therefore this
is assumption only and not valid evidence.

We only find the principle that a disciple must be ordered to be diksa
guru, by his guru. There is no automatic privilege to be guru. This is
nowhere in sastra.

2. For the idea of Srila Prabhupada’s order of a ritvik system- HH
Rangapriya Swami: "The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not
violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions." Here we have the statement by
a scholar of the sastra, on VNN. Since nobody has tried to refute this
statement, we shall accept this as sastric truth.

There are 3 basic categories of sastra - 1. Prohibitions 2. Injunctions
3. principles of sastra We don’t find evidence in #1, (prohibition) or #2,
(injunction), Sastra says neither way, neither "yea nor nay" on the matter,
suggesting that sastra does not think its a great matter to be commented
on. Because sastra does not give
direct approval to a ritvik principle, does not mean that it can never be done.

We see the principle in the example of Sri Ramanuja taking from his guru,
Yamunacarya, who was no longer physically present. Also we see the example
of Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti being linked to Srila Narottama in our
Parampara. "Srila Narottama dasa Thakura who accepted Srila Visvanatha
Cakravarti as his servitor." (C.c. Adi,1) and, "...Visvanatha Cakravarti
Thakura ... He accepted his guru, Narottama dasa Thakura." (SP S.B. Lecture
17/4/76, Bombay) Such great acaryas do not make such a great mistake. These
two examples confirm that great acaryas cannot make violation of sastra,
and such examples are certainly in support of the principle of a ritvik system.

The term "ritvik" is found many places in Srimad Bhagavatam. For one thing,
there is no sastric forbidding of a post-samadhi ritvik system. No mention
does not mean that a great acarya cannot implement according to time and
circumstance. Managerial decisions in deep dark Kali Yuga are not described
by sastra, and adjustment can be made by the great acarya. Sastra
definitely does say that the empowered GREAT ACARYA can order according to
time and circumstance, not being bound by rules, or "not subjected to any
Vedic rules or regulations"- Quotes- "Therefore the mercy of the Supreme
Personality of Godhead and Isvara Puri is not subjected to any Vedic rules
and regulations"
C.c. Madhya, 10.137 AND - "As Hari is not subject to the criticism of
mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is
also not subjected." C.c. Madhya, 10.136

The evidence in sastra exists in the realm of #3, or PRINCIPLE. A prominent
acarya can, by principle, order his disciples and conduct his movement
according to time and circumstance. In the Cc Adi lila, volume 3, page
6, the order of spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life
Cc Adi-lila 12.9 Text- Some of the disciples strictly accepted the orders
of the acarya, and others deviated, independently concocting their own
opinions under the spell of daivi maya. Purport- "This verse describes the
beginning of a schism. When disciples do not stick to the principle of
accepting the order of their spiritual master, immediately there are two
opinions. Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is
useless."

By these principles, Srila Prabhupada is empowered to order his disciples
according to the situation of time and circumstance, and "not subjected to
any Vedic rules or regulations."

If someone challenges this, then to be consistent, why do they only
challenge this, but not all the other things done, like him making
Brahmanas out of mleccas, giving gayatri to women, etc? All these things
are prohibited somewhat, but Srila Prabhupada was authorized by principle
to do them, to spread Lord Chaitanya’ movement. Those who object, are in a
smarta Brahmana type of mentality, who harp about the "letter of the law"
instead of the "spirit of the law." Just like when some say that Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta was not properly initiated, and therefore not in the
parampara link, which is very absurd. Intelligent devotees do not take
these nit-picky objections seriously at all. So why are some of the very
disciples of Srila Prabhupada adamantly
against his choice of ritvik system?, but overlook the other things he did?
The only reason is, they don’t want to obey him on his ritvik decision, that’s all.

SADHU
A. For the idea of "Srila Prabhupada’s appointment of diksa gurus, and 2/3’s
voting in, automatic heirs to the throne, etc." Some outside sadhus support
these ideas, but then again, some sadhus supported the disobedience of
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, which resulted in the total ruination of the Gaudiya
Math, which is all well documented. Srila Prabhupada - "This man should be
the next acharya?"' They wanted to create somebody ARTIFICIALLY as acharya
and EVERYTHING FAILED. They did not even consider COMMON SENSE - that if
guru maharaja had wanted to APPOINT somebody as acharya, why he did not
say? He said so many things and this point he missed? The main
point? And they insisted on it. They declared, 'COME ON UNFIT PERSONS to
become acharya,' then another man comes, THEN ANOTHER, then another. So better to
remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by guru maharaja. So
that is perfection. And as soon as it was announced that, 'Guru maharaja is
dead, now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and become [guru]'."
(CONV 8/15/76) Does this hit the nail on the head??

Therefore, we have to be extremely wary of such sadhus. Respect them?, yes.
But should we run Srila Prabhupada’s movement on their opinions?
Definitely not!
B. For the idea of Srila Prabhupada’s order of a ritvik system- We have the
documented statements of other authorities on Sampradaya Siddhanta, namely
Sri Bannanje Govindacharya, and HH Rangapriya Swami, and Lakshmi Tatachar,
and all these authorities support Srila Prabhupada’s decision for ritvik
representatives. They confirm that "this system can continue perpetually
even in the physical absence of HH Srila Prabhupadaji," they say its been
done before and therefore Srila Prabhupada chose this system, and there’s
nothing in the Vedas to veto such a decision. This was on the VNN, and
nobody has argued this statement yet- "such new systems have been created
in the past by the acaryas."

HH Rangapriya Swami: It appears from the system of initiation that Srila
Prabhupada has proposed in his letter of July 9th 1977, that he wished to
remain the diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take
the responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the
parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new systems
have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that Srila
Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and it is not
in violation of any sastric principles. / …The ritvik system propounded by
Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions.
Signed. Rangapriya Swami. . For full story, see -
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD28-2925.html

Sri Bannanje Govindacharya: You see it can be done like this. Everybody
must take diksha before the vigraha of Prabhupada. … There is no problem
in this system. Because it is an international institution it is natural
that all the people may not be scholars in sastras or sanskrit. But they
will be managerial heads. That is why it is inevitable to accept Prabhupada
as diksha guru. It is essential thing to accept him as diksha guru and
these are the instruments. Full story - URL:
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9901/WD28-2924.html

Lakshmi Tatachar: There are several such instances in SriVaishnava
Parmapara (tradition). Take the example of Sri Ramanujacharya himself who
was the foremost amongst the Srivaishnavacharyas. He was initiated into the
Srivaishnava texts and secrets by five great acharyas who are the disciples
of Acharya Yamuna. That is why is called Panchacharya Pradarshita. Though
he was a disciple of these five Acharyas, just like the Ritviks appointed
by HH Srila Prabhupada ji, these ritviks never claimed that they were the
Acharyas' of Ramanujacharya. On the other hand it seems Yamunacharya had
seen Ramanuja only once in Kanchipuram when he was studying with Yadava
Prakasha and he also showered blessings on Ramanujacharya from a distance.
Very interestingly; Ramanucharya mentions Yamunacharya and offers
obeisances to him in his benedictory verses found in the beginning of the
Vedartha sangraha. This shows that Acharya Ramanuja is considered to be a
sishya of Yamunacharya only. Again I have to stress that the letter makes
it amply clear that the disciples thus initiated by the representatives of
Srila Prabhupada are only the disciples of Srila Prabhupada only, not of
the representatives. Yours sincerely, Lakshmi Tatachar (Signed)
Full story- URL: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9902/WD09-2979.html

Conclusion: Guru, sastra and sadhu confirm that Srila Prabhupada’s choice
of a ritvik system is not against sastric principles. The principle is seen
in the Ramanuja and Srila Narottama and Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti
examples. Authorities from other sampradayas agree with Srila Prabhupada’s
right to use such a system. Srila Prabhupada is our founder acarya, and we
are duty bound to obey his orders for the ritvik system, if we want to
remain in his ISKCON. I repeat - why are some of the very disciples of
Srila Prabhupada adamantly against his choice of ritvik system?, but
overlook the other things he did? The only reason is, they don’t want to
obey him on his ritvik decision, that’s all. We pray that all the true
followers of Srila Prabhupada will cooperate and bring success to his
mission. Cooperation is our only means of success. Hare Krishna. Ys RKD.

===========================

SITES TO CHECK OUT:

* PRABHUPADANUGA'S:
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* Calcutta, India – 3C Albert Road., 700 017 (033- 2473757 or 2476075)

* http://www.krishnabooks.org Krishna Books
* http://www.prabhupada.cc Prabhupada samkirtana site

* http://mitglied.lycos.de/pada/ (Pada's Newsletter Archive)
* http://www.krishna.org/ (S.P. REAL AUDIO download)
* http://members.xoom.com/manvantar/index.htm (Sulochana's Homepage) 
* http://www.vedabase.com/  (Vedabase)
* http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/das/articles.htm (DAS)
* http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/padaweb/puranjan.html (Puranjana's Site)

* POISON TAPE audio and pada newsletters: 
* http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933 
* POISON TRANSCRIPT 
* http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933/19990519.htm 

* http://www.winink.com/tkg/  (Tamal Krishna)
* http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc   (GBC expose)
* gbc_108@hotmail.com  (e-mail)

* http://pages.infinit.net/pragosh/home.html  (FRENCH)
* http://www.unlimited-resources.com/anubhavananda.html  
* http://www.irg.zetnet.co.uk/  (IRG)
* http://www.come.to/irm (IRM)
* http://members.aol.com/gauridas (Gauridasa Pandita Dasa)
* http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5708/  (SPANISH)
* http://www.com.org/hb/ptd/cyber_gurukula.htm)  (Cyber gurukula)
* http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/  (Rocana's site)
* http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/vada/poison/poison.htm  (Poison issue)
* Vipramukhya and Jayadvaita's "illicit sex guru" rationalizations
* http://www.artnet.net/~yasoda/index.htm  [appointment tape fraud]
* http://www.gaura-nitai.net Gaura-Nitais Homepage Deutsch
* http://www.vnn.org/ (VNN news)

* ISKCON WOMEN-PRABHUPADA'S TIME (by Jyotirmayi Devi Dasi)
* Polygamy In The Hare Krishna Movement (Pritha's Page)

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