* Dear Mukunda dasa
1) From Halayudha dasa
2) From: "Jai Simman"

Dear folks, PAMHO. AGTSP.

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Dear Mukunda dasa,

thanks for your letter. We are sorry to say that as long as you endorse death threats to devotees, your message, whatever it is, will have no impact. Nor do we care to read anything that is ghost-written in GBC style. If you love Srila Prabhupada by death threats to his devotees, then that means you hate him --and that is what he says. And moreover you are acting like the GBC has done all along? Calling all of these molested kids "demons" is also some GBCs' style, it is certainly not Srila Prabhupada's, and thus your attitude is why there is now a LAWSUIT in the first place! As for your wanting WW III, Srila Prabhupada says that wanting this is demoniac, since people will suffer. Moreover, your blaming us for the ex-gurukuli fallout is just plain --well, stupid, as most folks concur.

thanks pd

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1) From Halayudha dasa

Hari Bol, Puranjana Prabhu:

Dandavatas. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hold your course, my friend. No need to fear those "Mukunda" types. You did not cause the abuses that are the basis of this suit; you did not launch the lawsuit, and you will not be responsible for the outcome. The wailing, hand-wringing hypocrites that are crawling out of the woodwork now are a tad late in trying to "defend" Srila Prabhupada. Is it really Srila Prabhupada they want to defend, or is it their rice bowl?

Then let them double their preaching efforts. If defending Srila Prabhupada had been their sincere desire from the start, they would have cleaned house of all the pretender vermin a long time ago, would have had the abusers incarcerated and would have made sure that even the least abused victim was properly counselled and compensated. You have been loudly screaming about these things for a very long time, and these people and their minions have been trying to shut you up and vilify you instead of taking proper action.

Now they seem to have perfected the art of simultaneously crucifying the messenger and the victim on the same cross. It is as if, in the act of raping and physically abusing a little child victim, the abuser's nicely ironed dhoti is splattered by the victim's blood. In a rage over this, he futher lashes out at his victim. The blood of the little vaisnavas, the little "Prahlads", has been crying out for justice for years. It would have been better if our weak, pretend leaders had addressed these issues in a timely and appropriate manner and had established the kind of climate Prabhupada had desired, and still does, where these things could never occur, or if they did, would see swift and severe sanctions brought against the perpetrators.

Instead, they conspired to pamper, promote and protect evil doers, and cover up their atrocities, while ignoring the plight of the victims. The result was an escalation in the violence against the innocent and unprotected. Today, the numberless offenses to the abused women, children and other vaisnavas, that have been piled upon the heads of these men and all those who still follow them, have fructified. It is not hard to guess what the outcome will be. They have sown the wind, now they are about to harvest a cyclone.

You warned that Prabhupada was being defamed. Others also joined with you in warning the GBC that this lawsuit was inevitable and would "defame" Prabhupada if ISKCON's mis-leadership did not take appropriate action. How are we to view their hollow, smokescreen, refusal to take responsibility "Prabhupada is being defamed" cries now? Srila Prabhupada said that the first class intelligent man learns by hearing, the second class intelligent learns after getting smashed, and that the third class intelligent, even after repeated smashings, still doesn't learn. It remains to be seen whether this august assembly of GBC appointees and their peers, will learn anything after this latest in the series of continuous smashings.

Srila Prabhupada will not be defamed. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta defamed by the activities of his disciples? Did not one of them, self-effulgent, go out and launch a worldwide Sankirtan Movement that made his name even more glorious? Sincere devotees can rest assured that no material condition can check the fame, or potency of Krsna's pure devotee. He will emerge from this with greater prominence and power. However, those who had any part in creating this disaster will continue to fade even more rapidly into oblivion.

The young girl whose pain-filled letter you shared in this edition of your newsletter should be contacted by the other plaintiffs. She should be urged to tell her story to Turley and Co. and to join the suit. It will provide her with some catharsis. She also needs to know that not all devotees of Krsna are child rapists hiding behind dhoti and tilaka. She needs help so that those deep and painful unhealed wounds that have only been papered over by time, can begin to heal.

Halayudha dasa

[PADA: Thanks prabhu!!!]

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2) From: "Jai Simman"

Subject: Dry Stool or Wet Stool - Stool is stool only !!!

Hare Krishna.

All I can say at this juncture is that blaming Srila Prabhupada for the anomalies within ISKCON is akin to blaming Lord Jesus Christ for the atrocities committed by the church! Nothing can be more foolish !

Why not we blame Krishna then since He is our original cause and therefore we are suffering because He is present!? Stupid! utterly stupid! instead of singling out the corrupt individuals who abused not just the children but also Srila Prabhupada, these gurukulis now go after the pristine Krishna Consciousness that the latter represents.

[PADA: Good point. Yet when we pointed out that Srila Prabhupada was also abused with poison, as he said he had been, some of our "reform brothers" decided to attack us, our point, and de facto defend the GBC. Indeed, the "reformers" sent people to hear Tamal's version. So, there has not been unity in the process of "identification of the root causes of abuses in ISKCON," and this has lead to confusion, and in some cases --blaming Srila Prabhupada instead. Indeed, if the "poison issue" had been followed sufficiently in 1997, there may not have been a gurukuli case since there would be so many other legal wranglings going on.

To sum, if "Srila Prabhupada's own followers" are confused about the sources of abuse, then the newcomers and public will have little means of penetrating what happened here? So now it is coming out in a "cult meltdown" atmosphere, true enough, yet the truth that Srila Prabhupada's wishes were not fulfilled and that he was victimized by the bogus successor's camp will eventually come out, although it will just take a longer time to emerge than if people had conjointly presented this.]

JS: While they decry abusers, they themselves are now abusing the process with many leading hedonistic lifestyles using previous abuse as the pretext. Because someone stole from me, I shall now steal from someone else and justify my case using my previous victimisation as a pretext. What is worse, the real policeman who came to teach and set things right then and now is not taken seriously and he is implicated!

The fact remains therefore that not everybody is sincere in Krishna Consciousness on both sides of the spectrum. There are people who come to ISKCON trying to fit their women's liberalism into vedic culture. They place themselves in the centre and when they do not get their desires fulfilled, they go all out to attack and make money out of it. In their blaming, they blanket everything as bad - the good, the bad, the proper principles as well as the abuse of these - all get lumped into one big "ISKCON mess" as they present it and in the process offend Srila Prabhupada. This Nori woman is one classic example. And she must be the biggest nut for not understanding what full time krishna consciousness means before joining full-time.

[PADA: Well, many ex-gurukulis see that the leaders live hedonistic lifestyles at their expense. So now, some of them have over-reacted by going overboard into materialism. Agreed. And also agreed, two wrongs do not make a right. Yet, where do we as a society start to address the wrongs that occured to the society's children? That has not been done up till now? So the Turley suit has sort of ended up as the de facto or default result. Plan "B" is now being effected because there has not been a good plan "A." If you fail to change the flat tire on your car, and keep driving seventy miles an hour, then "plan B" will start all by itself, you will crash, and thus you will be stopped by another means. So now things have come to the crash stage, due to neglect of fixing it right a long time ago.

As for blaming Srila Prabhupada, this is also part of a historical pattern. Jesus was lumped in with the abuses of the Church and so he was blamed for creating the medieval abuses. And then the whole post-1500s society in Europe became hedonistic, materialistic, and indeed atheistic. A sort of renaissance based upon rejection of the Church authority occured. The smartas, bogus Gaudiya Matha gurus etc. have created the same types of problem in India. They misrepresented the bona fide system, so the entire religion was almost rejected wholesale.

As for Nandini (Nori Muster), she did not "place herself at the center." Rather, she became a de facto "center" because she wrote a book about the problems in ISKCON. Whereas there are not a lot of "other books" written on this topic? Indeed, many "big strong men" that we know of, who are a foot and a half taller and weigh perhaps two and a half times as much as Nandini, still tell us they are afraid to speak up? So she spoke up, and as such she automatically became a prominent figure because ---few others are standing up?

Had other books and speakers been available from other sources, especially the so-called "sincere sources," that would have helped. Yet we find that most of the "sincere" devotees have not been speaking up or writing books? Thus, anyone who does speak up becomes a sort of "central figure" by default, because such a few number of people are making any public counter proposal. Srila Prabhupada says that in the desert the castor bean plant is very prominent, that is because not much else grows there. Just like pada, we are bitter stinky castor bean plants, no doubt, but we are huge when compared to the vacant desert.

So, if there were many other books of analysis available, that would have been another thing, but her book emerged as one of the top analysis because she did one, whereas others have not done any. She feels that women have been victimized in ISKCON, and that has in fact occured. She blames Srila Prabhupada to some extent, but that is also how she was trained. The leaders kept saying, "This is what Srila Prabhupada wanted." So, the right thing should have been done so that she could have seen a better model of the right thing. And is the right thing being done now is another question? Have the "sincere moderate devotees" formed a committee to reach out to the Nandini types and offer her types protection now? Not that we know of?

Even pada is now blamed for everything under the sun because we made some attempt in this regard. If a better book should have been made which uncovered the true history, that has not been done, and thus things like Nandini's book stand as the sort the default item. As for Nandini's "misconceptions when she joined," at the time she joined the enforced cult ritualistic worship of homosexual pedophiles was in full swing, and she was mislead by that party. If she was "a big nut," she was trained that way by the management system in force at that time. We could say the same thing of the medieval church, that the people who joined were "big nuts" for accepting that the Pope is a pure devotee, but that is what was being preached at that time.

We cannot blame all of the followers of false systems, we have to blame primarily the false leaders, and that is what Srila Prabhupada does. He blames the false prophets mainly, and seems to have more sympathy for the victims of the false prophets? And as we pointed out, the big male cavalry is still not on the horizon to offer Nandini types something better? That has not yet occured?]

JS: If she wants her syncretic freedom and the right to do and read anything she likes, what then is the meaning of guru, and regulation and scriptural protection from spiritually erroneous conclusions? If she did not understand these and yet joined the temple, then to begin with she is the biggest fool. Every strict order has its rules and regulations. If you cannot follow that, then stay outside and do your own stuff. Who is stopping you? You dug the pit and when you fall, you blame everyone else but yourself for it! And write "money and stick" book! And now she is some roving Master's degree holder saving people from Krishna Consciousness! Give me a break! And everything she does must ultimately please her. Otherwise Vedic culture is bogus, acharya is bogus, the woman's subservience to a credible man is bogus! just because their abuse irritated her?! This is called a classic example of a lack of brains!

[PADA: Well, the GBC also created this monster by abusing women and not protecting them. Women are still being victimized in ISKCON, and most of the men have still not answered that challgenge sufficiently, indeed there are still child beaters sitting in the guru's seat? Why aren't (even) a small band of men going from temple to temple to challenge these types of things? And where is the big band of protecting men for that matter? If 50 men got a travelling bus together and went from temple to temple to protest this with signs and pickets, calling the media, this would have all been shut down 20 years ago. Even 10 men could have done it. Where were/ are these men?]

JS: If such persons are more interested in compromising with the principles and broadcasting feminist freedom, then it would be better that they went and joined a women's organisation! Why join ISKCON? Leave it alone please! Do not come here. We do not need you! You address the abuse and fight for justice. That is fine. But when you hit the proper principles in addressing the principles' abuse or misapplication, for your own lack of brains, parading them as bad and yourself as a righteous little darling, that is another abuse! that's all!

[PADA: That Nandini has risen as a de facto spokesperson at all indicates that others have failed to do that. 10 or 20 "men" could have stopped most of this 20 years ago. I wanted to find just three men to take a guru's vyasasana out, with him on it, and toss him on the street, yet we could not find these men?]

JS: One set of rascals abuse children. Another set of rascals are some of those very same children who shall now behave cheapishly in the materialistis world out there and blame Vaishnavism and Srila Prabhupada for their own lack of seriousness to begin with. Abuse or no abuse, their lack of sincerity in following principles is wrong in itself. If someone has done wrong, then fight for that which is right and follow that which is right. Not that to fight one set of principle-busters, you throw out the baby with the cradle and become another set of frivolous principle-busters compromising and watering down principles just so as to have some illicit sex life and still say "jai srila prabhupada" in sentiment?!

Decry the abuse by also decrying the rectification of that abuse through the reinstatement of the founder acharya's genuine principles. That is the foolishness of these people. I suppose that if they found a quote in Srila Prabhupada's books advocating condom use and women's liberation, Srila Prabhupada would be the most glorified personality in the eyes of many of these ex-gurukulis, no matter how deviant the GBC is!

So both parties are after sense gratification. Supporting one or the other is like supporting the mongrel over the stray rabis-ridden Alsatian. Both are dogs anyway. As Srila Prabhupada aptly said, "dry stool or wet stool, stool is stool". For both of these parties, everything is bad except themselves and their mental speculations. Of course, those who are frustrated cannot think with intelligence and those whose intelligence is frustrated make others frustrated as well by abusing their powers.

Therefore, both elements are a nonsense in their own right and none is interested in understanding what Srila Prabhupada really wants.

R. Jai Simman Singapore

[PADA: Even if you are right, there has not been anyone putting their foot on the brakes of the madness in ISKCON, and so now it has come into the Dallas courts by default.]

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SITES TO CHECK OUT:

Srila Prabhupada wanted to be poisoned?
* http://www.equalsouls.org/tkg

* PRABHUPADANUGA'S:
* Oldham, UK (PSSHearing@prabhupada.freeserve.co.uk)
* New York City, phone: 212-674-0698 (pss52@hotmail.com)
* Seattle, Wa (Dhamaghosa dasa 206-729-0111) dasdasdas@aol.com

* http://iskcontimeline.homepage.com Nandini's history site
* http://www.krishnabooks.org Krishna Books
* http://www.prabhupada.cc Prabhupada samkirtana site

* http://mitglied.lycos.de/pada/ (Pada's Newsletter Archive)
* http://www.krishna.org/ (S.P. REAL AUDIO download)
* http://members.xoom.com/manvantar/index.htm (Sulochana's Homepage) 
* http://www.vedabase.com/  (Vedabase)
* http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/das/articles.htm (DAS)
* http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/padaweb/puranjan.html (Puranjana's Site)

* POISON TAPE audio and pada newsletters: 
* http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933 
* POISON TRANSCRIPT 
* http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933/19990519.htm 

* http://www.winink.com/tkg/  (Tamal Krishna)
* http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc   (GBC expose)
* gbc_108@hotmail.com  (e-mail)

* http://pages.infinit.net/pragosh/home.html  (FRENCH)
* http://www.unlimited-resources.com/anubhavananda.html  
* http://members.aol.com/gauridas (Gauridasa Pandita Dasa)
* http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5708/  (SPANISH)
* http://www.com.org/hb/ptd/cyber_gurukula.htm)  (Cyber gurukula)
* http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/  (Rocana's site)
* http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/vada/poison/poison.htm  (Poison issue)
* Vipramukhya and Jayadvaita's "illicit sex guru" rationalizations
* http://www.artnet.net/~yasoda/index.htm  [appointment tape fraud]
* http://www.gaura-nitai.net Gaura-Nitais Homepage Deutsch

* ISKCON WOMEN-PRABHUPADA'S TIME (by Jyotirmayi Devi Dasi)
* Polygamy In The Hare Krishna Movement (Pritha's Page)