1) FIRE BRIGADE UPDATE

[PADA: Below is Sri Rama's "proposal to restructure that GBC." Lots of speculation, for example, how did the GBC become gurus? Sri Rama never answers? And how can a guru be "restructured" and so on? But also, lots of good points. However as we all know, many previous "proposals" have been made sometimes with good ideas, but the problem is that these ideas are then not implemented. A lot of his proposals have already been made over the years at GBC meetings. And so the perception is: that the GBC is corrupt and that is why these "proposals" are never enacted.

Of interest, what has spurred him to write is that he says the Windle Turley case has proven that the current GBC structure is not working to monitor the problems and situations within ISKCON. The current GBC is failing to act in areas of the greatest importance to ISKCON: to ISKCON's peril. Sri Rama sort of admits that part of the problem is that the big sannyasis have big bank accounts and personal wealth, a complaint that has been around since 1979, but these "sannyasis" are not doing their job of vairagya-vidhya, renunciation and preaching. And these sannyasis are also "managing" instead of preaching.

Sri Rama has a good solution: make the householder sector strong and get them to manage. Good, except that his team kicked out most of the householders already? So, Sri Rama, you have to make some solid proposal how to get back the middle class? Just like Cambodia's Pol Pot, he killed off much of the middle class, the merchants, bookeepers, teachers, bankers, the whole middle class was practically wiped out, and now some experts say it will take 300 years to rebuild the middle class in Cambodia again, that is, if there are no further upsets.

So that is what has occured in ISKCON, some elite sannyasis kicked out most of the middle class, and now even these sannyasis are wondering, just like in Cambodia, ok, who is going to be there to manage the whole country? Well, there is nobody to do that, you wiped them out. So he has to make a solid proposal to bring back and encourage that class, but that portion of his presentation is weak. As usual.

Then he says we are all invited to help ISKCON leaders discuss this on pamho.net. False, try sending a message there and it bounces back "your message is not for our readers" and so on. More of the same closed shop little ivory tower modus. Let them eat cake. Neine danke. Sri Rama also says that there have been radical proposals for mass resignations. Well, what is so radical about that? Locally, a Church had a big scandal and all of the top leaders resigned and they had to import some new leaders from the East coast, and that helped. So, if you keep the same old Tamal, Hridayananada, Satsvarupa, Jayapataka, these guys are considered as corrupt and as the cause of all the problems. Sri Rama wants it both ways, keep the guys who burned the whole thing to ashes, and simultaneously, rebuild, no.

Some of these guys have already resigned from the GBC and they just keep getting salary maintainance as "gurus." So that means they get nice facility to do --nothing-- but sit down on some deserted beach in Ireland and manage nothing, but they just keep the manager's salary. So ISKCON has to pay for "managers" that are not even managing, and are indeed they are hard to find. No, a manager must be right there with the project, daily helping, not visiting once every 20 months to get a few guru daksine payments.

Nor hare these managers listening to the problems of the citizens? PADA has been a squeaking wheel since 1978-9 and they never consult with us or people like us? So, they are not even listening to what the problems are, so how will they solve them? In any event, we are glad to see that the status quo is getting challenged and that more effort is being made to make changes, even if it is all show bottle, it means that the citizens are restless and they are demanding changes. And thus if the GBC does not make some radical changes, and soon, they will have nobody left.

thanks pd

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Proposal To Restructure The ISKCON GBC

BY SRI RAMA DAS

Dear Members, Friends and Well-Wishers of ISKCON: PAMHO, AGTSP.

It hardly needs repeating that there has been a crisis of confidence in ISKCON's leadership that has been building up over some years. During this past year, especially when ISKCON's long-time poor response to its child abuse problems came to light, many devotees began taking a closer look at the effectiveness of ISKCON's current management scheme. The Governing Body Commission itself recognizes the need for change, as demonstrated by its reform/restructuring resolutions passed over the last few years, as well as the appointment of a committee to work on specific proposals.

However, as in the mid-1980s (and similarly with the BBT in the early 1990s), the GBC seems unable to arrive at a concrete plan and take the necessary action without outside help. Meanwhile, calls for radical action, such as for the mass-resignation of the GBC or the adoption of ritvikism, have increased. As an alternative to such drastic approaches, several groups of devotees have been working on more moderate (but nonetheless sweeping) proposals.

One of these groups formed in the GBC Restructure conference, a public Internet discussion forum on PAMHO.NET (formerly the BBT's COM email system). About eighty devotees of all types from around the world have participated for months and produced a proposal to reorganize the membership and role of ISKCON's top-level management. Below, you will find the full text of the proposal as it has been placed on the GBC agenda for the upcoming Mayapur meetings.

We are posting the proposal here in order to solicit your support. While sannyasis, GBC members and ISKCON leaders have voiced support, we also know that some may be reluctant to take the sometimes painful steps needed for genuine reform. We hope that a widespread show of support from devotees in general will encourage the GBC to adopt this proposal without hesitation or reservation.

If after reading this proposal (which we hope you will find both reasonable and well-reasoned) you are willing to add your name to the list of proposal supporters, follow the simple directions that appear after the "End of Proposal" line near the bottom. Thank you taking the time to give this your attention and consideration.

Your servant, Sri Rama das
GBC Restructure Conference Moderator
[mailto: srirama.acbsp@pamho.net]

FULL TEXT OF PROPOSAL:

NAME OF PROPOSAL: "GBC Restructuring: Division of Leadership Responsibilities in ISKCON"

PROPOSED BY: PAMHO.NET "GBC Restructure Conference" (Contact: Sri Rama das [srirama.acbsp@pamho.net] or publicly on the conference: [gbc.restructure@pamho.net])

WHEREAS: There is a widespread lack of confidence in ISKCON's leadership,

WHEREAS: Srila Prabhupada instructed his followers to implement the principles of Varnashrama Dharma within ISKCON for the peaceful administration of the Society and in order to set an ideal example for the benefit of society in general,

WHEREAS: When seeking solutions for ISKCON's leadership and management problems, it is appropriate that, before we examine other alternatives, we first look to the managerial models implemented by Srila Prabhupada,

WHEREAS: Srila Prabhupada's original managerial concept mandated a separation between those in the sannyasa ashrama and those who manage,

WHEREAS: Many, many devotees believe that the lack of separation between management and the process of initiation (and all it entails) since Srila Prabhupada's departure has significantly damaged ISKCON and its members, contributing to managerial insufficiency, conflicts of interest, the loss of more than fifty gurus and sannyasis, as well as encouraging ISKCON members to seek guidance outside of ISKCON, and

WHEREAS: ISKCON and its affiliates and members will benefit extensively by the implementation of these divisions of responsibilities,

IT IS THEREFORE PROPOSED THAT: A reorganization of the ISKCON leadership according to the principles described below be implemented by March 31, 2002 [allowing for two complete cycles of GBC and Temple President meetings in Sridham Mayapur]:

A. GOALS FOR THE REORGANIZATION:

1. ISKCON management needs to be restructured in a manner that is (a) consistent with Srila Prabhupada's desires, (b) where management is separated from the process of initiation and all it entails, and (c) leaders are engaged in roles that are consistent with their underlying natures and with the personal life-choices they have made regarding their social roles.

2. The implementation of varnashrama in ISKCON is long overdue and it must begin with ISKCON's top leaders -- for the purposes of both setting the proper example, and for utilizing the divine system Krishna gave us and which Srila Prabhupada wished to see instituted and developed.

3. The GBC body should continue as the "ultimate managerial authority" as Prabhupada indicated.

4. The most qualified people should occupy the roles and positions in which they will be most effective.

5. Proper balance needs to be restored between the temples (as the primary places where management is exercised) and the GBC as the ultimate managerial authority. The temple is the basic unit of management in ISKCON and some management prerogatives need to be returned to the temple level.

B. SPECIFIC DIVISIONS OF RESPONSIBILITY:

Householder community:

6. The GBC shall be comprised of householders and retired householders (vanaprasthas who have not donned saffron cloth, indicating their desire to be free from activities normally associated with grihastha issues).

7. GBC members should previously have been successful temple officers and project leaders whose vision and abilities have been clearly demonstrated. They should be proactive, people-persons, with the experience and skills to manage and govern on a large scale.

Sannyasis:

8. Sannyasis are the natural spiritual leaders of society. All classes of devotees are dependent on the sannyasis to demonstrate how one relies wholly and solely on Krishna for sustenance and protection. Their example of fully-dedicated preaching, renunciation and austerity is essential for the well-being of our entire Society. Therefore, renunciates should travel and preach, teach, make devotees, and encourage the opening of new centers. They should not manage, oversee or control major projects, zones or regions. They should avoid unnecessarily staying in one place for any length of time and should not have a very comfortable situation always at their disposal.

9. There are certain kinds of simple management that may be acceptable for sannyasis; for example, a small monastery of sannyasis and brahmacharis, supervising brahmacharis in a temple, or organizing a modest local preaching program or traveling party. If an endeavor, begun by a renunciate, grows to a point where management becomes a significant daily activity, or the project is expanding into a full-fledged temple, it is time for the sannyasi to move on to another field. He must allow a competent grhastha or vanaprastha manager, or a board of directors, to take over the management so he will be able to focus solely on preaching. Renunciates should not remain attached to personally supervising projects or programs they have been associated with, but rather, they should demonstrate their ability to go out and begin a new preaching effort.

10. Sannyasis should avoid maintaining bank accounts, credit cards, personal conveyances, residences or real estate, being involved with business ventures, etc. Nor should they permit others to maintain such accoutrements on their behalf or for their primary or exclusive use. Sannyasis should not seek or accept wide-ranging preaching fields requiring expensive travel arrangements or other facilities necessitating expensive purchases or maintenance.

11. These specific guidelines should be observed by all sannyasis, whether or not they have disciples.

Gurus:

12. Diksa-gurus may be brahmacharis, grhasthas, vanaprasthas or sannyasis.

Devotees who take up the service of diksa-guru should be free from positions of formal power and/or institutional authority (just as the sannyasis).

OTHER FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES FOR ISKCON MANAGEMENT:

13. ISKCON, as a whole, is a confederation of temples, communities and projects guided by a single set of principles and standards, and regulated by its Governing Body Commission's prerogative to define those standards and to determine which temples, communities, projects and individuals are meeting those standards and are therefore entitled to identify themselves as members or member-organizations.

14. Within the scope of the overall ISKCON structure described above, temples, centers, projects and communities are financially and managerially autonomous and are to be managed by the local temple president, secretary and treasurer, or appropriate project managers. Individual Zonal Secretaries are responsible to see that proper standards of management and spiritual practice are being adhered to. In the case of certain internationally-funded projects, local management may be under the general supervision of an appropriate international board of directors.

15. Centralized management and bureaucracies should be avoided. However, certain functions that are best performed on an international, national, or regional basis may be established if there is a clear need. Examples may include public relations and communications programs, legal coordination, standards committees, justice functions, etc.

16. GBC Zones shall be consolidated and reorganized into contiguous areas adhering to recognized national and/or regional boundaries.

REASONS FOR ADOPTING THIS PROPOSAL:

The GBC Restructure Conference submitting this proposal consists of roughly eighty devotees who have volunteered their time and effort to work for practical improvement of ISKCON's management and leadership system. Membership in the conference is open to all ISKCON well-wishers who agree to participate in the discussion in a polite and Vaishnava-like manner. [If you have a PAMHO.NET account, you can join the GBC Restructure conference without assistance. If you do not have an account, or need help in joining, send an email to srirama.acbsp@pamho.net.]

The Conference was formed in response to a proposal posted in the Prabhupada Disciples conference, calling for an across-the-board resignation of the GBC.

Responses to this proposal indicated that many were not comfortable with disabling the GBC body when there is no plan or suggestion as to who or what should take its place. There was also concern that simply replacing the current members with a new batch guaranteed nothing if the underlying problems afflicting the ISKCON management structure were not simultaneously addressed.

This is quite logical when we consider that there has been a 96%+ turnover in the GBC over the years, yet many, many devotees feel the performance and effectiveness of that body has not concomitantly improved.

The many devotees who contributed to the start of this project made it very clear that this cannot simply be an academic exercise. Our Society faces a crisis of confidence as never before. This crisis is not just the sum total of the devotees' personal dissatisfactions, but is reflected in a collection of tangible and highly-negative events clearly tied, in our minds, to the behavior and decisions of ISKCON leadership.

ISKCON's organizational structure should be based on one of Srila Prabhupada's original concepts: the division of duties of the householder community and the sannyasi group. This is not a comprehensive varnashrama solution, as it does not immediately address the issue of the varna role of the GBC and others. However, it is solidly based on the daivi-varnashrama principle of getting the most qualified devotees in appropriate positions of leadership -- specifically to insure the effectiveness of their service to Krishna, as well as their spiritual longevity. It recognizes that, while Vaishnavas can act on any needed platform, for their own spiritual welfare and for the peace of society, they do not try to act on more than one spiritual or social level simultaneously.

The GBC remains the sole highest body as Prabhupada envisioned and will be comprised of grhasthas and vanaprasthas (wearing white). The GBC oversees and maintains standards, sets ISKCON-wide policies, and resolves matters or disputes that cannot be settled at lower levels. The GBC is the "ultimate managing authority," which means it is the final, or concluding, authority. However, all management is enacted at the local, regional, national, or continental level.

That management should be done by householders and retired householders (white-wearing vanaprasthas) is fundamental to this proposal. They are the natural managers of society, because it is the sva-dharma of householders to control land, capital, resources, and labor. By definition, this is never the sva-dharma of sannyasis. Householders usually spend large portions of their lives in one locale, which is ideal for ongoing management.

On the other hand, in order that all orders of our Society are encouraged to reach their full spiritual potential, it is also fundamental that the spiritual heads of society set an ideal example of unattachment to material affairs and concomitant advancement to the highest levels of bhakti-yoga. The advantage of renunciation is the ability to remain aloof from entanglements and encumbrances, while enjoying the freedom and nectar of constant preaching and chanting -- thus remaining always dependent on Krishna's mercy. In this way, the sannyasi develops strong faith, resilience, adaptability, and has no other shelter but the Holy Name.

Sannyasis following the guidelines proposed above will set an inspiring example for new recruits, householders and the public, and also greatly reduce any perceived need to compromise the principles of purity and simplicity in order to obtain funds. They will demonstrate how one can remain wholly and solely dependent on the mercy of God. These principles must not remain theoretical concepts, but should be demonstrated through practical example.

Similar principles should apply to all those who have accepted the weighty service of continuing the disciplic succession. As we have seen over the last several decades, the pitfalls surrounding the acceptance of disciples are numerous and deep. By divorcing themselves from management considerations, gurus stand a better chance of remaining pure, humble, simple, and dependent on the mercy of Krishna. Gurus, disciples and ISKCON are also protected from conflicts of interest and abuses of a perceived absolute position. Most importantly, many spiritual masters will have greatly increased time to sufficiently train and guide their disciples.

POSSIBLE ADVERSE EFFECTS:

The authors of this proposal have not been able to identify any possible adverse effects that might stem from implementing this proposal. However, we do anticipate certain objections interested parties may raise, as well as a number of challenges we face in completing the process of reform and restructuring. A few of these points are addressed here.

1. "Didn't Srila Prabhupada say sannyasis could be on the GBC?"

Yes he did. For example, here is a well-known quote supporting this fact:

"Recently, I have given Sannyasa order of life to Rupanuga, Satsvarupa, and Bali Mardan, and I have made Brahmananda the GBC man for Africa, and I wanted that you should be GBC man for South Pacific zone. So being Sannyasi is no hindrance for being also GBC. In fact, the duties of the GBC men are now to be just like the duties of the Sannyasis." (Letter to Madhudvisa, 12/6/72)

On the other hand, Srila Prabhupada also spoke against sannyasis managing:

"Prabhupada: Yes, sannyasi, brahmacari, means preaching. They are not meant for material management. They have dedicated their life for spiritual--although this material service is also spiritual--but they are doing on such a strength. You cannot expect a very expertly management and... But they act. Simply ask them to do the needful.... They cannot be expert, these men, managers. They are not...

They are giving up everything. But as soon as there is big establishment, we require a top manager."

The issue is not whether sannyasis can be GBC's or not. The first quote above makes it clear that sannyasis can be GBCs. Rather, the issue is really whether they SHOULD be GBC's or not in the present time, place, and circumstances, because ISKCON has grown to a "big establishment" and we should now follow Srila Prabhupada's directive requiring top managers whose focus is solely on management. Many devotees are convinced that our society's present ills are, to a large extent, due to a serious social imbalance, with our top leaders accepting conflicting social roles and not being able to perform any of the roles properly. While some aspects of the management of the society may appear for some time to be able to go OK on under such conditions, the entire social structure becomes disturbed. When the social structure is disturbed, the younger devotees cannot situate themselves properly within suitable varnas and asramas, thus they become weak and lose their enthusiasm to fight with maya.

2. "This proposal is nice, but there are many aspects of ISKCON management and leadership that need to addressed. Wouldn't it be better to wait until we have a completely comprehensive plan?"

Yes, that would be ideal. In fact, the GBC Restructure conference plans to continue working and submitting further related proposals at appropriate times.

However, considering the urgency created by the current crisis of confidence, the proposal above was designed for implementation independent of other measures. In the likely event it takes more than a single year to implement all needed reforms, we feel this proposal addresses such an urgent need that it should be acted on without delay.

3. "Isn't this unfair to sannyasis and gurus already on the GBC?"

It would be unfortunate if this proposal is perceived as being unfair to anyone.

Our proposal is intended to preserve the integrity of the sannyasis and diksa gurus. A healthy ISKCON needs healthy sannyasis and diksa gurus who are not overburdened by duties that are not the sva-dharma of sannyasis and diksa gurus.

Its purpose is to insure that all concerned are best engaged in service according to the social roles they have chosen for themselves. While many GBC members will feel relieved to return to the normal roles of their ashramas, we understand that some will find this transition painful. We hope that allowing over a year for implementation will give sufficient time for those affected to make the necessary adjustments to their personal situations. Focusing on the substantial resulting benefits for their disciples, ISKCON, and themselves will hopefully ease the perceived distress. Since it appears that substantial reform in ISKCON leadership is inevitable, the sooner it is accepted and accomplished, the easier the transition will be for all.

4. "Aren't the proposed limitations on sannyasa life rather draconian? Won't they result in many sannyasis doing less service for Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, not more?"

The essential principles of these guidelines have always existed in the sastras.

These particular recommendations are felt to be the logical application of the standards of leadership, renunciation, and austerity appropriate for the sannyasa ashrama in this time and place.

In the name of increased service, we have permitted the breakdown of the Vaishnava social order by minimizing the importance of the basic principles of this most-essential ashrama. Ironically, in the name of increasing the service of a small number of its members, ISKCON has lost the services of thousands of others who have suffered through the resulting social and spiritual distortions.

Now, ISKCON wants and needs all of its sannyasis back -- in the social and spiritual role only this ashrama can fill. The long-term benefits will far out way any temporary inconveniences.

5. "My guru stays mostly in one place in order to facilitate his studying and writing." or "My spiritual master needs a bank account and a credit card to simplify his extensive traveling and preaching. Aren't there going to be any exceptions?"

Since we know there are four kinds of sannyasis, it seems unlikely that everyone would be doing exactly the same thing. But by their very nature, exceptions are managerial decisions, not philosophical principles or broad, guiding concepts.

Therefore, discussion of possible exceptions is beyond the scope of this proposal.

6. "Won't it be difficult to find grhasthas or vanaprasthas willing to take the dual role of GBC membership and zonal management? Or mightn't there be areas of the world, such as pioneering preaching fields, where only sannyasis are involved and if the zonal responsibility is relinquished there will be a major gap?"

The GBC body could temporarily continue the zonal assignments of some sannyasis and/or gurus while suspending their GBC body membership to make room for the implementation of the above plan. As was mentioned in the text of the proposal, there is sufficient time allowed to manage the various transition issues.

END OF PROPOSAL

TO ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LIST OF PROPOSAL SUPPORTERS, send an email to this address:

gbc.restructure@pamho.net

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2) CB UPDATE

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Puranjan Prabhu, You mental masturbatory nut. Do you actually think the faulty logic you continually present has any positive effect at convincing me that Sanat or Mukunda are what you say they are? Come on grow at little. These Prabhus, as far as I can see, have shown the proper direction of vani and I say that I am proud to associate myself with them.

[PADA: As we said already, Sanat has been citing Puru dasa in his newsletters as his new authority. And as we all know, Puru is the biggest supporter of the Gaudiya Matha's "gurus" and he frequents Kirtanananda's place. And he admits he is good friends with Kirtanananda. We have said this about a zillion times recently and we are shocked you never saw this in our newsletters? And we mentioned that Sanat has published Puru saying that Kirtanananda is now Sanat's nice God brother, a gentleman, and KS's disciples should not be disturbed by criticism (because he is guru tattva etc.). So Sanat is supporting the guys who murdered Sulochana as his idea of guru tattva, as we have already pointed out. Why is this confusing?

If you are not reading more of Puru's stuff, we advise to do so before you endorse this team. And if you want to read even more of Puru's writings, go to the VNN forums. That is also where Puru said that Kirtananada should not be disturbed because he is guru tttvam, and heck there are tons more of his writings there. So if you are proud to be on the team that supports the Gaudiya Matha deviants and that Kirtananada is guru tattva etc., so be it.]

CB: That rabble rouser Sanat too (that is meant as an affectionate terminology) Show me! At least one instance, where they have said that they support whole heatedly, any of these poison vani demons. If it is just an isolated occurrence where something proper was said and it is appreciated by them, then that can be the extension of their mercy.

[PADA: Well we do not endorse either the that the Gaudiya Matha deviants are gurus or that Kirtanananda is guru tattva, either half percent, half-baked, or whole, we support that zero.]

CB: If gold if found in a dirty place, then we should not acknowledge it?

[PADA: Ummm, well that is a good question. We are saying worship Srila Prabhupada and you are not acknowledging at all, but instead you are attacking our party, and looking for false gold bogus gurus in the dirty places? Why are you surrendering over at the false guru's dirty places? Why not work with with us instead of the Puru and Sanat team, who support the Gaudiya Matha gurus and Kirtanananda? Why are you always running to the dirty places? Why not stick with Srila Prabhupada as your guru for a change, it might do you some good?]

CB: Again grow up. Defacto this and defacto that, word jugglery. Show me, with good proof and I will bit them, like a pit bull. Prabhupada's vani is all I'm chaste to in this situation. I spent some time last night on Mukunda's web site and could only find Prabhupada, not any demons. So, what now? Show me, without defactoing around.

[PADA: Sanat says that he is working with Puru, and Mukunda says he is working with Sanat. So they are all saying that are working together, i.e. with the Gaudiya Matha. They are citing and endorsing Puru, so that means that they agree with Puru that Kirtananada is guru tattva, it is plain and simple. It is not de facto, it is what they are saying. Sanat is even citing Puru's chastising pada for being critical of their dearmost God brother Kirtanananda, whom they also say is their gentleman pal, and that boo-hoo, pada is disturbing his pooja worship. Of course, Sanat also says we should kill the children victims of Kirtanananda's abuses, so in addition to saving Kirtanananda's guru post we should harass his victims?]

CB: This letter is for you, you can print and chop me up as you like. The attached part is for Dravinaksa and it is his prerogative whether or not it gets printed. I request that you send it to him, as I do not have access to his e-mail address. If you want me to send it, then please forward his e-mail address. After he reads it and if he gives permission, then its your monkey, do as you wish. Even though harsh words are spoken, it is to wake someone up. Of course only those who would be Prabhupadanugas do I care about, the others can go to hell where they belong, for now.

I had a dream many years back. In this dream Prabhupada and some of His associates were walking down the street, as they approached, Prabhupada looked at me and said "get well soon," then continued down the street. In of its self not out of the ordinary, considering my consciousness at the time. The part that stuck me so wondrously was that with Him was my old nemesis Ramesvara, with Prabhupada! Walking nicely down the street! Then it hit me, all of Srila Prabhupada disciples will eventually go back home, back to Godhead, just as Prabhupada said about all of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's disciples, even those that committed so many atrocities. But guaranteed, it will be after a billion disillusions of this universe and much suffering at the hands of Krsna's divine energy, before they do. Devotional service will without a doubt act, even on the most envious demoniac person.

Had Prabhupada not left His body at the time or in the way He did, would there be even the beginning of a Prabhupadanuga movement? No, everyone was asleep in the lap of the Tamalites, business as usual, do the pick, Ki-jai. abandon your children, Ki-jai. varnasrama is not for us, Ki-jai. We are devotees. Vaisnava is not so easy. His leaving was the wake-up and we should all accept fault for the conditions of his demise. Look what we made Him do! We are the collective scum that sticks to the bottom of our shoe when walking through a gutter.

So please leave Sanat and Mukunda alone and give them a chance to response nicely, or maybe by yelling, to your chosen position. If you want to swear, cuss, be little, or in any way take out your frustrations, or desires to play false ego games, then give it to me. I will accept your anger and condemnation for them. And I would do so for any Prabhupadanuga, that can understand Prabhupada's pure unadulterated vani. Thank you, Hare Krsna

Caturbahu dasa Bhakti

[PADA: Well, we did ask them why they were supporting Puru. And we asked why were they now working with the Gaudiya Matha and Kirtanananda's biggest cheerleaders? And they replied by sending us even more stuff from Puru, where he was even more so licking Kirtananada's booties and complaining that pada was not working with the founder fathers of the Gaudiya Matha's homosexual deviation. In sum, they responded by formally concluding that they are in the camp of the Gaudiya Matha and Kirtanananda. By the way, for your interest, one of the ISKCON youth who was abused said to us that your new pal's plans to bring back Kirtanananda as guru tattva is even more brainless than the GBC, just look at Sri Rama above, they are trying to run away from these deviants. So this ex-youth told us you guys are "ka-ka brains." I said, jeepers, that is way too wild even for pada's editor to say!

Thanks pd]

=====================

3) RE: Diksha

In response to Mahesh's thoughtful words on guru-tattva, here are a few more words on Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system of conveying diksa via officiating acaryas.

"Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami states that the instructing spiritual master is a bona fide representative of Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna Himself teaches us as the instructing spiritual master from within and without. From within He teaches as Paramatma, our constant companion, and from without He teaches from the Bhagavad-gita as the instructing spiritual master. There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciples spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. Thus the instructions in the science of devotion are differentiated in terms of the objective and subjective ways of understanding. The acarya in the true sense of the term, who is authorized to deliver Krsna, enriches the disciple with full spiritual knowledge and thus awakens him to the activities of devotional service." CC adi 1:47

Logically, the acarya/diksa-guru must be on the perfectional and objective uttama-adhikari platform (liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service) because in the diksa-guru/disciple relationship the guru is duty bound to teach the surrendered disciple transcendental knowledge by which all sin is destroyed (diksa). The siksa-guru on the other hand does not have this aforementioned mutual diksa-guru/disciple bond or oath which is necessary for receiving diksa (surrendered disciple and deliverer guru). Therefore, the siksa-guru does not have to be on the uttama-adhikari platform or the objective perfectional devotional stage. The siksa-guru can be on the subjective lower stages of devotional development (madhyam adhikari).

The function of Srila Prabhupada's ritvik representative of the acarya system manifests these transcendental relationships of diksa and siksa gurus perfectly and therefore it is bondafide. But those who do not understand the purity and completeness of Srila Prabhupada's entire ISKCON diksa program for his disciples - sankirtan, Diety worship, extensive purports on the cream of the Vedas etc. deviate from his institutional instructions for giving initiation after his physical disappearance based on a misconception and definition of "diksa" and "ritvik".

Srila Prabhupada's bhagavata definition:

diksa - knowledge by which all sin is destroyed

ritvik - his disciples continuing his comprehensive diksa and 9-fold bhakti program and officiating the 1st and 2nd vaisnava diksa ceremony on his behalf.

Other (varnasrama) definitions:

diksa - receiving gayatri mantra from a physically present diksa-guru

ritvik - a priest that performs vedic ceremonies (samskaras, birth, wedding, funeral etc.)

The present system being practiced in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha is the varnasrama system of Deity worship not the bhagavata system of philosophical knowledge propagated by Lord Chaitanya and all other bonafide vaisnava acaryas. Srila Prabhupada's ritvik representative of the acarya diksa system is in accordance with the bhagavata system and under the present circumstances of this degraded kali-yuga the ritvik system of conveying diksa is the best means to propagate Krishna consciousness throughout the world because the empowered uttama-adhikari or bonafide diksa-guru remains in the center by carrying out his complete and established diksa program (9-fold bhakiti, sankirtan and book distribution) even after his physical disappearance.

Thus the sankirtan movement can grow exponentially without being hampered by the inevitable physical disappearances of the acarya/diksa-guru as well as the chaos resulting from neophyte disciples who prematurely pose themselves as diksa-gurus". Furthermore, in this degraded Kali-yuga the bonafide uttama-adhikari diksa-guru is always in short supply which makes Srila Prabhupada's ritvik representative (officiating-acarya) diksa system all the more superior to the physically present diksa-guru system. Therefore Srila Prabhupada's nonprofit religious corporation ISKCON, as he had envisioned it, is the perfect institutional organization to spread Krishna consciousness throughout the world.

The problem remains his neophyte and deviant disciples managing ISKCON.

SITES TO CHECK OUT:

NEW SITE: http://members.tripod.com/gurupoison (Tamal indictment)

* http://www.egroups.com/group/Vaisnavacouncil (Visoka cyber istagosthi)
* http://www.govinda.net (first editions of S.P. books)
* http://www.krsna.tv (underground Hare Krishna web site)
* http://www.JitendriyaBooks.com

*Book For Sale "Someone Has Poisoned Me," You can get it from: New Jaipur Press/ POB 208/ Mayodan NC 27027 $10.00 requested donation

* Seattle, Wa (Dhamaghosa dasa 206-729-0111) dasdasdas@aol.com

* MONTREAL, Canada, Hasti Gopala Dasa (for details write to: hasti90@hotmail.com)

* BERKELEY California. Hare Krishna Youth, 510-389-3346 conducts regular harinam parties, arotikes, cooking classes, college preaching, Prabhupada video nights, and so on.

* NEW YORK "Prabhupada Sankirtana Society" Headquarters 48 Ave. B NY, NY 10009 (212) 674-0680, PSS108@juno.com

01) http://mitglied.lycos.de/pada/ pada newsletter archive
02) http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933 Poison tape

03) Poison tape transcript:
03) http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933/19990519.htm
04) http://www.winink.com/tkg/ Poison whispers
05) www.prabhupada.cc Prabhupada samkirtana site
06) http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/padaweb/puranjan.html Puranjana's Site
07) http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc GBC expose
08) http://pages.infinit.net/pragosh/home.html French site
09) http://members.aol.com/gauridas Gauridasa's site
10) http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/ Rocana's site
11) http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/vada/poison/poison.htm Poison issue
12) www.harekrsna.de "Hare Krsna Homepage" (German)
13) http://members.nbci.com/prabhupada/ ISKCON Reform (German)
14) German translation of Final Order (pdf)
14) http://members.nbci.com/prabhupada/final.htm
15) http://members.xoom.com/prabhupada/ (German Expose)
16) http://www.equalsouls.org/tkg Srila Prabhupada wanted to be poisoned?
17) http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/ Nandini's history site
19) http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/ GBC
20) "illicit sex guru" rationalizations:
20) http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/vada/iskcon/right.htm
21) http://www.artnet.net/~yasoda/index.htm Appointment tape fraud
22) http://www.asitis.com Original Bhagavad-gita As It Is
23) http://krsnabook.com Original Krsna Book
24) http://www.krishna.org Prabhupada Hare Krishna News Network
25) http://folio.bhaktivedanta.org S.P. Folio Infobase CD-ROM
26) http://realaudio.bhaktivedanta.org Prabhupada RealAudio Archive
27) http://mp3.bhaktivedanta.org Prabhupada MP3 Bhajans, 2 CD set
28) www.domgbc.org (Direction Of Management)
29) www.acbspn.com/ BOMBAY India
30. www.ROOPA.org (Raghunatha dasa's world economics proposal)

31) http://krsna.kgb.cz/hlavni.htm Prague Czech-devotees (english site)
32) http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/das/articles.htm (DAS)
33) http://www.com.org/hb/ptd/cyber_gurukula.htm (Cyber gurukula)