Radhanath? Or did you mean Rottennath?

How long did Rottennath support Kirtanananda. It was for many years. Rottennath was aware and even assisted in the Sulochana murder. According to Janmastami who was one of Kirtanananda's hitmen, Rottennath gave the order that Sulochana should be murdered. And it was Rottennath who had the big lawyers to personally protect him - just in case - when the issue was being investigated and then came to the courts. Rottennath likes the pretty girls. Did you ever see him in his (usual) Lord Chaitanya dancing pose?

-------------------

MP3 CD site

Dear Prabhus, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! It's Lord Sri Krishna's divine mercy that this wonderful Web site has manifested. All glories to the Webmaster, for his wonderful service to the worldwide community of vaisnavas!

I am pleased to announce that a 12th highly compressed MP3 CD has been added to the 11 MP3 CD set (http://www.pratyatosa.com/SP_MP3_16kHz_Order_Info.htm). The new CD is the best one yet as far as audio quality goes, because it is made from the 60 Srila Prabhupada lecture CDs that the Bhaktivedanta Archives has been selling for the past few years at US$5.95 each. In other words, you can enjoy the same quality audio reproduction as these fine audio CDs for only US$3, instead of $360, for a savings of $357!

The entire set of 12 MP3 CDs, containing over 1000 hours of Srila Prabhupada's lectures are now available for only US$42, including shipping by air to anywhere in the world! I am working very hard to get this nectar out to the devotees as quickly as possible. Four orders are being duplicated right now for shipment tomorrow morning. Orders are currently being filled within one to 7 days of having been received.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
pratyatosa@hotmail.com
http://www.pratyatosa.com/

----------------------------

1) NEW: SITE BUILDING HELP

I wish to invite you to visit the new section of vedaveda.com at the following address:
http://www.vedaveda.com/anglais/pro/promot.html

This section is not only meant for webmasters, concerned with the promotion of their site (they will certainly find numerous new tips and ideas on finding a wider audience) but for all those of you who would like to discover many new Krishna Conscious websites. Remember to visit our new features on the Webcam by simply clicking on Webcam in the menu. Also take a loook on WEB-HOSTING As low as $ 21.50 a month. Have a nice visit. Hare Krishna

Ys Aprakrta dasa

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2) Sender: harinam@ilhawaii.net
Reply-To: Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: New poll for Vaisnavacouncil

--- In Vaisnavacouncil@y..., Gaétan Pellerin pragosh@v...wrote: To the rtvik proponants. If a devotee living in the reformed ISKCON structure were to accept a disciple and initiate such, would (s)he be subject to disciplinery action, excommunication, or other reprisal and discrimination if one could not defeat the philosophy of the individual nor if there is evidence of misrepresentation of falldown? One question before answering that poll: What is the meaning of "reformed ISKCON"?

Harinama dasa: The poll also hypothetically violates one of the axiomatic truths: Srila Prabhupada's order cannot be questioned or debated.

--------------------

3) Note the following updates for your GBC list:

1. Hari Sari: resides in Mayapur, India. Supported homo/pedo Satadanya to represent GBC in GBC/guru lawsuit. Ardent supporter of Bhavananda. Says Prabhupada was sadana siddha.

[PADA: Hari Sauri was also Bhavananda's right hand man for many years during the molester-con era?]

2. Malati: lives in New Vrndavana

3. Virabahu: Into reinitiating. Set all time record for closing most temples in history of ISKCON. Also almost closed Puerto Rico temple but it was saved by Vrekeshwara Pandit Prabhu. Closed Santo Domingo Temple but it was saved by Urjasvat Prabhu. Removed from GBC of Alachua,FL. by the Temple Board of Directors.

4. Translation to Agrani from Spanish: 'I was a desciple of Agrani Das. I have a photo copy of his birth certificate. His name is Andrew Lerra and he was born Jan. 24, 1949 in Boston, MA."

[PADA: We heard that Agrani left his guru post after he was attending a Caribbean ghost busting voodoo ceremony for an alleged ghostly haunted young woman "disciple." He apparently said that the female ghost witch doctor who spread blood from a slaughtered sheep on her breasts during the cremony had "agitated him for sex." No kdding. And then the GBC said that is a reasonable excuse why one would get agitated for illicit sex, so he can stay on as guru? Until he had yet another similar crisis later? This whole story, that the acharyas need half naked female Caribbean ghost busting helpers, agitates me for a bottle of tranquilizers.]

--------------------

4) RE: MAHAKSYA D

MD: Haribol, folks, sorry about the confusing poll question. What I was trying to say was that if we find one who is misleading others, it is certainly our duty to try to correct such a problem. But, if a situation should arise where there is no evidence of misrepresentation, where there is no evidence of a "so-called guru" sitting in a vyasasana while engaged in notorious, criminal or disgraceful behavior, can one really state that duty calls for defeating and discrediting such a person simply because he or she may be outside our particular circle.

[PADA: Any bona fide "guru" has first got to give credit to the bona fide parampara. And thus he would fully respect Srila Prabhupada's plan for a GBC/ ritvik system. So far, almost cent percent of the "gurus" we know of --first of all-- they discredit his idea? Where are the "gurus" who have all along tried to re-inforce, support, encourage and promote his instructions in this regard? This is what our Srila Prabhupada constantly re-states about his guru maharaja, namely Srila Saraswati thakura, that he had ordered a GBC system? As for being outside our circle or inside our circle, that is not as important as the clarity and purity of this potential guru's siddhanta.

There are many further questions we would have to give to any potential guru. For example, does this "guru" agree with the pure siddhanta of Srila Prabhupada, and as such, has he compromised with the deviants? How has he applied the siddhanta? What has he been preaching? Where has he been preaching? What literature has he produced? Can we see it? And what is the result of his preaching? Has this guru worked vigorously to separate Srila Prabhupada and the bona fide parampara from the swindlers, and if not, why not, and so on and so forth? We could easily ask these same questions about Srila Prabhupada and get "perfect answers" to these questions, and the above questions are merely samples of the numerous other questions we'd need answered.]

MD: The poll goes even further, suppose such a person "is" in our fold and is acting properly on internal instructions from Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga that it is quite proper to "commit" to the delivering of disciples, is such a person subject to disciplinery action and are the disciples of such a person subject to well meaning but interfering folks discriminations.

[PADA: We have seen numerous upstart gurus appear independent of the GBC and some of them have been experiencing the same "troubles" as the GBC gurus. As we said in the beginning, we need to know many questions all accross the board and not on a few points only. Moreover, since Srila Prabhupada said that none of his God brothers are qualified to be acharyas, and they are brahmanas by birth, then we need to be even more careful with people whom someone said "are born with a hamburger in their mouth." As for our disciplining and reforming a guru, if he needs to go to a "guru reform school program," he is not and was not a guru. As for our preaching to the disciples of a fallen or off guru, we can do that since Srila Prabhupada preached to anyone.]

MD: Many times, I have heard rtvik proponants state that one may accept disciples, but must do so outside the institution of Srila Prabhupada, so this is my motive for the poll. How "outside" should such a person be placed?

[PADA: First, we'd say the potential guru has to show that he is a bona fide guru. Since, so far at least, most of the "bona fide gurus" have compromised with the bad guys or just pooped out on their own, we have not yet had to make any truly critical analysis. Krishna sort of uproots them out with His own devices, saving us the trouble. Obviously, if a person is a pure devotee who folows Srila Prabhupada cent percent, he is within the scope of our parampara and he is not outside. The onus is rather on that guru to prove that he is within the parampara, that he has the cent percent purity, that he has the "Krishna lingita vigraha" preaching potency, that he has Krishna's empowerment and blessings and so on.

And then, as Srila Prabhupada says, he will be like the rising moon. No one will have to ask barely anything? He is called "self-effulgent." The self-effulgent are just that, no one can challenge that the moon is rising, it is self-effulgent. That is the term he uses.

Everyone will know he is the next guru due to his self-illuminating qualities. Srila Saraswati said the same thing, make a GBC and the next acharya will apppear self-effulgent like the rising moon. Yet they did not wait for the next rising moon, rather they taped a flashlight onto a homosexual and declared that he is the next rising moon, artificially making a guru. Meanwhile, the real rising moon appeared, Srila Prabhupada, and they were by then so absorbed in their politics they could not and did not help him, and Srila Prabhupada said that instead they gave him "depression, repression, compression." He thus called them "blind owls."]

MD: I deeply appreciate the comments of Sriman Puranjana das as well as the way he makes such statements, offering respects and thanking the writers for their efforts in this discussion group. I also deeply appreciate the concern shown against phonies (who all of us can handle) and worse (criminals, who we really cannot tolerate anymore) who pose as guru without qualification. I do not agree that because of the existance of phonies and criminals in Vaisnava garb (kali cela) that everything has changed as far as this philosophy goes.

There is still the possibility of disciple(s) of Srila Prabhupada (inside or outside the institutional walls) of becoming cent percent qualified per first canto as well as Nectar of Instruction descriptions of the qualifications of sucvh a person. A past is not criteria for judgemnent, as there is ample evidence that folks can perfect the science of Bhakti and change into touchstone for others. What is going on today is everything. Pay attention (sit properly) to this following paraphrase of one of Srila Prabhupada's final statements while in this biological realm:

"I presently do not see anyone among my disciples with full qualifications of acarya.

[PADA: Good. In 1977 Tamal said that none of us are qualified to be guru now, and Srila Prabhupada agreed.]

MD: However, One disciple may have great qualifications in one area, while another disciple may have great qualifications in another area, if they work together in cooperation, they will be a great benefit to the world and serve to continue the parampara."

[PADA: Very good, he said that we need to work combinedly. And that if we become separated we will break, just like sticks bundled are powerful but separated they can be broken...]

MD: Before the "hard" rtviks jump on this statement and state that it is total verification of their position, Id like to comment about the scenario that I presented about my own "rtvik" disciples. (Had a hard time sayin that, for this group existed long before the word "rtvik" became so popular, when these folks tried to commit to Krsna, rtvik only referred to family priest).

[PADA: You could also say you acted as their siksa guru, priest, guide, vartma pradarsaka guru, friend or whatever, we'd say the term is not as important as the function of the agent....]

MD: I asked, "Where do I send them?"

[PADA: They should simply stay at Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet?]

MD: This shows absolutely no flaw in any of my disciples, the flaw is in the "phoney master". The disciples adequately showed impeccable commitment, they gave up meat and drinkin, they were cutting down on ganja by practice of bhakti yoga, and they certainly were not insufficient in the requirement that one must approach a Vaisnava and "submissively inquire" from such. So, there is no fault in any of them, for it was the "master" who failed to "commit" to them.

[PADA: There is a hoopla for this formal initiation ceremony now, but it is due to peer pressure and not reality.]

MD: All they were seeking is reciprocation of commitment, and I failed myself, my Guru Maharaja, and all of His disciples by my failure to commit to them.

[PADA: That is because they know there is pressure to "get initiated by a living guru now" and all of that, and this is the fault of the bogus preaching going on everywhere that makes people think they need "a living link."]

MD: The number one requirement of a bonafide spiritual master is that he "commit" himself to the service to those who Sri Sesa Balarama sends their way. But, only due to self-doubt, I went runnin to the building seeking permission, and this is a common story of Moses' doubt in the empowerment that was already arranged.

[PADA: Well, you went to the (GBC?) building asking for permission and they said no? "We have many other living gurus"? Anyway, you should have told your followers, hey this is it, your guru is Srila Prabhupada and I can only take you to him, ummm, this is however the magic elevator door....]

MD: The reason that I am not a bonafide guru is only because of my faithlessness in "guru tattwa". I refuse to believe that Srila Prabhupada has specifically empowered me to save the world.

[PADA: Well he does not need to "specifically" empowered anyone, rather he is empowering each of us as long as we preach his message.]

MD: He gave me all the tools needed for this, but when it comes time to get water out of that rock, I not only tapped twice due to uncertainty, I didnt tap at all. Why? Because I do not believe in Srila Prabhupada's empowerment to make pure, unalloyed devotees. It has nothing to do with "brahmana" status, nor Amerikan birth, nor even lack of familiarity with deity worship. It has nothing to do with a mixed marriage, or any of that stuff, there is only one flaw, I refuse to commit to others the way Srila Prabhupada has committed Himself to me.

The point of the poll, and other items mentioned, is that cooperation must be given to those who commit themselves to the spreading this movement. If we see a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has disciples and is committed to them as well as Srila Prabhupada's mission, offer support, offer service, be the cooperation that is most pleasing to Him. Dont think you "know" such a person, familiarity breeds contempt. Lord Jesus Christ discusses this seriously, Srila Prabhupada discusses this seriously (after all, tirtha, sridhar, bon and his other god brothers were not privy to the dream Srila Prabhupada received permission to spread this mission westward in), get out of the way if one cannot defeat (or if there is no reason for minor concern). Dont worry about who such a person we may have qualms about may be misleading, followers of fools had that arrangement given to them by God as well, as He alone claims responsibility for both rememberance and forgetfulness.

What did I do after I let everyone down? Moped, smoked dope, smashed my head against the wall, but I do have something that my disciples may have missed in me, I have a Guru who is committed to me more that describable, so he didnt let me off the hook by a few reefers. He still expects us all to abide by his instructions and take this Krsna Consciousness Movement as our life and soul, and to the degree we take, we may also distribute to others. When we commit to Him, we simultaneously commit to those who may approach us with submissive inquiry, and carry out His real orders.

Commitment, what a concept. A little deeper than pointing the way to the church and giving out a book, and telling all who approach that someone else is responsible for their inner needs.

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[PADA: Good points. In sum, we'd say one has to commit to the level of action he is capable of. Committing to taking a soul back to Godhead can only be done by a person who is back there, so that is why we act as agents who show them the path. Often, we have seen that some of our drug addict "siksha" devotees would leave the temple and go back to their drugs, but the newer devotees they made meanwhile would continue, so the newcomers went on and surpassed their vartma pradarsaka guru, this is common and we should work on this platform, because it is reality. This is indeed the formula that works, it is called honesty. thanks pd]

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5) MADHAVI DD

MD: Dear Visoka prabhu,

Thanks for clearing that up and sorry for being touchy about that paragraph. I imagine it is frustrating for not getting concrete response to your valuable chairing attempts. I have some experience with traditional and successful methods of leading a discussion, and basically I think you're doing a great job, and was really objecting to the one point.

>To tell you the truth, I haven't been feeling well lately, and when
>people don't feel well, they tend to get grumpy and get misunderstood.

MD: I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. I hope you are better soon. But I didn't think you were being grumpy.

>My concern was that the forum not degenerate
>into another vnn/wannabe mudslinging fest. My (visoka *moderation* dasa)
>mode was coming out. You know, its only our original guidelines and
>protocol that Locanananda and I made as conditions for members to follow,
>that has kept this forum from becoming a mudfest.

MD: Yes, and I am very happy for this forum and the mood you are creating. It feels like a safe haven to me, and after vnn that means a lot. I was so thrilled on vnn, initially, as I'd been cut off from devotees for years, but quickly became sad and morose, but then jumped in the fire of debunking fools perverted presentations of Krsna consciousness. Lonely work sometimes.

> Personally, I don't see the reason for all this confusion.

MD: Personally I don't even think it's confusion. I don't feel confused. Nobody else really sounds confused to me either. What I hear is selective application, one ignoring or glossing over what Prabhupada says here in favour of one idea, the other ignoring/glossing over what Prabhupada says there in favour of the opposite idea.

[PADA: Our idea is very simple, that Srila Prabhupada did not appoint any successive acharyas and he said that any such sucessive acharyas would in any case be "self effulgent." That has not yet occured? He also said that some of his sadhaka followers might also become such pure acharyas "when their training is complete." That has also not yet occured either? Or what? And in the meantime, we should continue to worship (when there are apparent parampara gaps, as Srila Prabhupada says) "the last link" (i.e. Srila Prabhupada) as he specifically ordered from 1967-77: by a mangerial body, or what he later said was a GBC system. Correct us if this idea is wrong or our interpretation is wrong or if we have glossed over something you see that we missed?

As for the main arguments of our opponents, "Puranjana is a bad guy because he offends the pure devotees like Tamal," or "he offends Gaudiya Matha backers of Tamal and co. as their acharyas," or "he will offend someone in the future even if he is like Srila Prabhupada," i.e. Puranjana is evil, a demon etc., this is called "argumentum ad hominen": they are rather avoiding our points and attacking our alleged character. Often they have some thugs in their camp who send me threats, and so on, to punctuate their points, that we are evil, and that we should be thus eliminated by any means. The Berkeley PD and the FBI told me they wanted to kill me. So some of them take this argumentum ad hominen business seriously.

We hate to point this out, but even in high school debate class our opponents would have been tossed out, and we would have won hands down for the simple reason that their technique of "argumentum ad hominen" is called "the last refuge of fools" -- even in the most basic high school debate's rule book.

It is never allowed in standard debates even among teens in karmi school. We have had to tolerate this vicious accusation class for more than 20 years, but it is not used in any standard debate: "my opponent is evil so who cares what else he says"? No, we have shown specific statements by specific persons v. Srila Prabhupada's statements and we do not necessarily say that they are bad, rather we first prove that their siddhanta is off, and then you decide if they are off, or bad, or not?

MD: I think it can all be harmonized, but not until the glossing is addressed on both sides.

[PADA: Well we do not want to gloss over any important detail and we'd like to know what that is? And if we have done so please forgive us and rectify us?]

MD: Actually, Krsna consciousness is so simple, even a child can understand it, so Srila Prabhupada said. And that is what makes me so mad at SNM's followers, and it seems to be coming from SNM himself, like JR says, where there's smoke there's fire, in that he seems to be claiming that no one can understand Srila Prabhupada except through the physically present lotus lips of a 'sadhu'.

[PADA: Well yes, and SNM has specifically said that some of his "sadhus" are the GBC's gurus, and he said this from at least 1984 - 1993, you know Tamal etc. "Tamal is our lotus mouth living acharya," he stated, because why? Because Tamal is perhaps considered one of the most dubious characters in ISKCON by most devotees? SNM has never explained our first question, how did Tamal become Mr. Lotus personified, a "living" acharya as SNM called Tamal and company? This is the 64 thousand dollar question, some of the Gaudiya Matha folks backed the GBC guru system without answering our first question, how did they become gurus?]

MD: Just because a group of maliscious conspiratous usurpers cannot understand the first thing about Krsna consciousness due to their lust for power and greed, cannot be used as an example to prove that therefore no one else in the world can understand His Divine Graces transcendental message!!!

[PADA: And thus, why have some of the Gaudiya Matha folks backed these usurper people as gurus? Are they "birds of a feather"?]

MD: He was specifically empowered to give us, everyone who will take to it, this understanding. But what are the basics? Ritvikism? That's basic? What about Prabhupada's statement to Vaikuntha? 'They are already initiated'?

[PADA: Excellent point. We said that Srila Prabhupada is the acharya early on, and that Jayatirtha is not, because for starters JT is taking pot and having illicit sex. And this was way before the 1990 so-called "ritvik" debates. No, he is the current acharya for ISKCON for the simple reason that these others are not qualified and/or authorized. Indeed, we have argued that the GBC are not even qualified to be ritviks (bona fide priests).]

MD: There is no ritvik priest/acarya involved there.

[PADA: Agreed, the ritvik argument really says: hey, let us worship Srila Prabhupada. And that is what our opponents do not like since they want to see someone else worshipped.]

MD: To me basic is: Always remember Krsna; never forget Krsna. Everything you do; do it for Krsna. Accept whatever is favourable for your Krsna consciousness; reject whatever is unfavourable. Everything can be used in Krsna's service. Always chant Hare Krsna. I think that Srila Prabhupada taught us all to follow these basic principles using our own intelligence. Following from these the disciple's first principle is to accept the spiritual master without question. ---your first axiom, no? I think that we should give everyone the benefit of the doubt here and ASSUME that they do! Then maybe we can hear what they are saying? Trying to be humble enough to mean, yr servant,

Madhavi-devi dasi ihlm

[PADA: Hope this helps.]

SITES TO CHECK OUT:

NEW SITE: http://members.tripod.com/gurupoison (Tamal indictment)

* pada's alternative email: angel108b@yahoo.com
* pada's new pager number is 707-973-0372
* press in your number then press pound, and pray that it works.

* Book For Sale "Someone Has Poisoned Me," You can get it from: New Jaipur Press/ POB 208/ Mayodan NC 27027 $10.00 requested donation

* Seattle, Wa (Dhamaghosa dasa 360-856-5411) dasdasdas@aol.com

* MONTREAL, Canada, Hasti Gopala Dasa (for details write to: hasti90@hotmail.com)

* BERKELEY California. Hare Krishna Youth, 510-389-3346 conducts regular harinam parties, arotikes, cooking classes, college preaching, Prabhupada video nights, and so on.

* NEW YORK "Prabhupada Sankirtana Society" Headquarters 48 Ave. B NY, NY 10009 (212) 674-0680, PSS108@juno.com

01) http://members.tripod.com/gurupoison (Tamal indictment)
02) http://mitglied.lycos.de/pada/ pada newsletter archive

03) http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933 Poison tape
04) Poison tape transcript:
04) http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3933/19990519.htm
05) http://www.winink.com/tkg/ Poison whispers
06) http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/vada/poison/poison.htm Poison issue
07) http://www.egroups.com/group/Vaisnavacouncil (Visoka cyber istagosthi)
08) http://www.krsna.tv (underground Hare Krishna web site)
09) www.prabhupada.cc Prabhupada samkirtana site
10) http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/padaweb/puranjan.html Puranjana's Site
11) http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc GBC expose
12) http://pages.infinit.net/pragosh/home.html French site
13) http://members.aol.com/gauridas Gauridasa's site
14) http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/ Rocana's site
15) www.harekrsna.de "Hare Krsna Homepage" (German)
16) http://members.nbci.com/prabhupada/ ISKCON Reform (German)
17) German translation of Final Order (pdf)
17) http://members.nbci.com/prabhupada/final.htm
18) http://members.xoom.com/prabhupada/ (German Expose)
19) http://www.equalsouls.org/tkg Srila Prabhupada wanted to be poisoned?
20) http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/ Nandini's history site
21) http://www.krishnabooks.org Guptas KBI Books (he is a cheat)
22) http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/ GBC
23) "illicit sex guru" rationalizations:
23) http://www.islandnet.com/krsna/vada/iskcon/right.htm
24) http://www.artnet.net/~yasoda/index.htm Appointment tape fraud
25) http://www.asitis.com Original Bhagavad-gita As It Is
26) http://krsnabook.com Original Krsna Book
27) http://www.krishna.org Prabhupada Hare Krishna News Network
28) http://folio.bhaktivedanta.org S.P. Folio Infobase CD-ROM
29) http://realaudio.bhaktivedanta.org Prabhupada RealAudio Archive
30) http://mp3.bhaktivedanta.org Prabhupada MP3 Bhajans, 2 CD set
31) www.domgbc.org (Direction Of Management)
32) www.acbspn.com/ Prabhupada Network
33) www.ROOPA.org (Raghunatha dasa's world economics proposal)
34) http://www.prabhupada.com/ BBT archives site
35) http://www.govinda.net (first editions of S.P. books)

36) http://www.JitendriyaBooks.com Trading original SP. books
37) http://krsna.kgb.cz/hlavni.htm Prague Czech-devotees (english site)
38) http://tsa.ppp.ripco.net/das/articles.htm (DAS)
39) http://www.com.org/hb/ptd/cyber_gurukula.htm (Cyber gurukula)