Srila Prabhupada a conditioned soul?
Why Pratyatosa is criticising Srila Prabhupada?
Why Pratyatosa is banning devotees from Istagosthi?
There has been an ongoing discussion over at http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/ about whether or not the moon landings were real or faked. Pratyatosa das, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, has said that he believes, contrary to what Srila Prabhupada has said, that man did go to the moon, and listed his mundane credentials (BS, Applied Physics, Michigan Technological University) to assert his expertise and knowledge on the subject » more of Pratyatosas critique on Srila Prabhupada here «
From:
Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009
Subject: Re: Proof That They Went to the Moon
... If someone tells me: "Well, when Srila Prabhupada states that we never went
to the moon, I don't accept that as being what really happened. I think Srila
Prabhupada is wrong about that. I think they did go to the moon, but I think that
they were made to feel uncomfortable by a giant UFO", then the speaker isn't distorting
what Srila Prabhupada actually says on the matter, in order to bring it in line
with their own take on the situation.
Srila
Prabhupadas statements about the moon landing
Excerpt from conversation with disciples, Perth, May 12, 1975
Prabhupada: They have not gone to the moon planet.
Paramahamsa: Really?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is far, far away. Their calculation is wrong. They are going
to a wrong planet.
Paramahamsa: It must be the Rahu planet.
Prabhupada: Yes, or something else. Not moon planet.
30.07.2009
From das devi dasi
Hare Krishna, Dear Prabhu, all
obeisances for you, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Pratyatosa Prabhu has banned me from the group, because I have challenged him on this. But you may be interested to know that indeed sulphuric acid is used to reduce ph to optimal levels for fermentation of molasses in producing ethanol. A simple google search yields evidence of this. Of course yeast is the catalyst for fermentation, but sulphuric acid assists the fermentation.
I have called Pratyatosa's attention to this; however, he refuses to withdraw his ridicule of Srila Prabhupada's statement, and now we see that he has become vehemently defensive of his finding fault with Srila Prabhupada in this instance.
I am sorry that I am unable to participate in the discussion, but I refuse to un-publish Praghosa's post in answer to Pratyatosa (which was very respectful, in my opinion) up at http://bhaktivedantas.com/ART_NAMHATTA/moonlanding290709.php, and Pratyatosa demands its withdrawal as a condition for reinstating me in the group.
And seeing that I am banned, I have published an answer to Pratyatosa's assertion that Srila Prabhupada is a conditioned soul subject to 4 defects up at http://harekrishnamalaysia.com/krsnablog/2009/07/30/srila-prabhupada-a-conditioned-soul/.
Maybe you will check out the references I have cited there: --
http://www.premiermolasses.ie/uses.htm
http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/afris/Data/466.HTM
And if you feel so inclined, maybe you will take up the defence of Srila Prabhupada in the forum and persuade Pratyatosa to come down from his high horse and be a little more honest. He writes the following even after I have directed him to read the evidence that supports Srila Prabhupada's statement.
Pratyatosa: "Also, don’t be fooled by so-called older devotees who try to try [sic] to make themselves seem spiritually advanced by saying, “I just accept whatever Prabhupada says. If he says that the moon is further away than the sun then I just accept it.” They might be just putting on a show. If they were actually spiritually advanced, then wouldn’t they have some respect for godbrothers who are better educated?" (Pratyatosa)
Answer to Pratyatosa by das devi dasi:
Godbrothers who are better educated? Educated better than whom? Than Srila Prabhupada? What does education mean, Prabhu? You said it yourself, your mundane education qualifications are BS.
You have belittled Srila Prabhupada and reduced the relationship between spiritual master and disciple to sentimental affection - “But this is what makes him even more dear to his loving disciples” and “they would joke about some of things [sic] that Srila Prabhupada said or did which were obviously mistakes, but they loved him very, very much” - when in fact he is our Lord and Savior.
The relationship of the Spiritual Master and the disciple is not the same as the relationship with Krishna in Vrindaban. The relationship with the Spiritual Master must always be continued with the greatest respect and veneration, without forgetting His exalted position; like father and son. - letter to Hansadutta, Los Angeles, 16 Jan 1969
So I was very much alarmed by your post. As disciples, it is our business to faithfully represent what Srila Prabhupada has taught. If you assert that you know something else or something that Srila Prabhupada didn’t, then you’ll forgive us for assigning a different value to your presentation. It cannot be equated with the absolute value of Srila Prabhupada’s words.
So Pratyatosa you think that Srila Prabhupada was an ordinary jiva soul, subject to the 4 defects? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur says otherwise. The Guru is not an erring mortal whose activities can be understood by the fallible reason of unreclaimed humanity. There is an eternally impassable line of demarcation between the Saviour and the saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this. - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, "Thakur Bhaktivinode" (http://bhaktivedantas.com/ART_NAMHATTA/Bhaktivinode.php)
Come on, senior disciples of Srila
Prabhupada, are you going to keep silent on this?
Pratyatosa Prabhu, if you say that Srila Prabhupada is subject to the 4 defects,
that he made mistakes, then how can you accept the Bhaktivedanta purports as authoritative
after all? Pretty much everything Srila Prabhupada said or did would be thrown
into doubt, if we follow your line of thought. Going down that road, we begin
to question the authority of everyone in the disciplic succession... where do
you draw the line, Prabhu?
Best wishes - your servant, das devi dasi
--------------
Pratyatosa: Even though the
Apollo moon missions involved thousands of NASA employees, in 40 years, even on
their deathbeds, not one former NASA employee has come forward to say that there
was any kind of moon landing hoax
Mahesh: That is common sense, BILLIONS of dollars were squandered - the
NASA employees are STILL on PENSION/paypacket roll. Do you think that they are
that stupid to give up life of luxury on the Government paypacket just to tell
the truth?
Look at the ISKCON bogus guru camp they are pretending to be Mahabhagavat
whilst being on payroll. EVERYONE knows this now. To these type of CON men It
is all about protecting their Payroll.
Mahesh: Wake-up! We follow Srila Prabhupada as GURU not some bunch of
lunatics. Srila Prabhupada says they have NOT been to Moon. End of topic.
We accept Srila Prabhupada's words as FINAL. Srila
Prabhupadas statements about the moon landing
Pratyatosa criticising Srila Prabhupada by writing the following:
Pratyatosa: It’s not that our beloved Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada never made any mistakes. For example: http://z.pe/fBe …and chemistry was supposed to be his expertise! :-) But this is what makes him even more dear to his loving disciples. It shows that he is also a tiny jiva soul, subject to the 4 defects. But if a tiny jiva soul can accomplish the incredibly great things that he did, then we should be encouraged that maybe we too can someday do something great for our Guru Maharaja!
The way I look at it, even when Srila Prabhupada seems to make a mistake such as “Women’s brains never weigh more than 34 or 36 ounces!” or “We can’t live for more than 3 seconds without air!” or “You can make wine by mixing molasses and sulfuric acid!” he is completely under Lord Sri Krsna’s direct control. Krsna is very tricky. Maybe the purpose is to get rid of the not-so-sincere. Many potential devotees have left because of his statements about the moon being further away than the sun, or that we never went to the moon. Perhaps they just weren’t sincere enough to receive the causeless mercy of the pure devotee at that particular time, so Kkrsna purposely gave them an excuse to find some fault and leave.
.... And Srila Prabhupada also says:
1. “Women’s brains never weigh more than 34 or 36 ounces!”
2. “We can’t live for more than 3 seconds without air!”
3. “You can make wine by mixing molasses and sulfuric acid!”
How do you explain that? Srila Prabhupada didn’t want blind followers. Crooks,
rascals, fools, and blind followers are the kind of disciples that the bogus
ISKCON gurus get.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (July 30, 2009)
Answer to Pratyatosa about the wine thing, by Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti
This is what I found on the wine thing......and at first read see nothing erroneous with it. Even in the second quote Prabhupada says "So far I know" And is this simple process for making "alcohol" workable? Not that it is necessarily drinkable, but that it has alcohol content.
Conversation 11/21/75
Prabhupada: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill.
It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane;
therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is
the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry,
and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they
must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And
in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary
quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Krsna. And then wine,
and they must be sold.
Lecture 4/14/73
If you actually love God, Krsna, then you can remember Him at any time, always,
always. There is no difficulty. Here Kuntidevi describes pa?kaja, with reference
to lotus flower. And Krsna describes Himself in the Bhagavad-gita, raso 'ham apsu
kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the liquid." So Krsna can be
remembered by tasting water. Even those who are drinking... If he thinks that
"This taste of drinking is Krsna," he will one day come out a great
saintly person. Such a nice thing, Krsna consciousness, if you have cultivate
Krsna consciousness, if you follow the description given by the sastras. So I
can request that even the drunkards that "You can become Krsna conscious.."
The drunkard, what to speak of others? Because Krsna says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya:
"I am the taste of the liquid." Generally, liquid, water is taken. So
liquor is also liquid. Liquor is bad because it creates intoxication. Otherwise,
it is made from sugar, molasses, molasses with sulphuric acid fermented, so far
I know. We were in the chemical line. Molasses fermented with sulphuric acid and
then distilled. That is called spirit, or liquor. So thing is, nothing is
bad, but because if a thing creates bad effects, then it is bad. Then it is bad.
So I shall request even the drunkards.... In your country, there are many drunkards.
There is no scarcity. So if you'll kindly remember when drinking wine that this
nice taste of drinking is Krsna... Just begin with it. You'll come out one day
a saintly person, Krsna conscious. It's so nice, practical.
On the air thing.....
Lecture 4/3/72
when we are within the womb of our mother, it is very precarious condition. Any
medical man knows. We have to live there in this way, in a packed up bag, practically
without any air. Airtight condition. Just imagine. Now just at the present
moment if you are put into the airtight condition, you will die within three minutes
or three seconds. The medical opinion is that. But in the womb of our mother
we have to live for clear ten months or more than that in that airtight, packed-up
condition. Just imagine how much troublesome condition was there. That is practical.
We may have forgotten. (END)
I personally have no problem with this above. No mistakes.
Lecture 4/7/75
Maya means to give sufficient punishment to the living entities who have forgotten
Krsna and wants to enjoy material life independently. They are called conditioned
soul. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. This conditioned life means we accept
one type of body, we suffer sufficiently. It is simply suffering. There is no
enjoyment. Where is enjoyment? To remain in the womb of the mother for ten months,
is that enjoyment? Packed up in airtight bag? Just imagine, if you were put in
airtight bag at the present moment, within three seconds you will die. You
cannot live without air, even for three seconds. This is our position. And
by maya's arrangement, we have to remain at least for ten months within the airtight
bag, embryo, within the abdomen of our mother. So if we cannot live for even three
seconds without air, how it was possible to remain in that airtight bag for ten
months? That is also Krsna's mercy, to allow us to develop the body, so that coming
out of the mother's womb we can live independently. To make us strong in the body.
But the maya is so strong that even within that position, the mother is also killing
the child. This is Kali-yuga.(END)
Looks like a hyperbolic statement for effect and not siddhanta. I have no problem
with this either!
Hare Krsna
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti
--------------
OK. You got me there for sure, Bhakta Alex, Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada was right and I was wrong! But the other 2 still seem to be mistakes, no? Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
-------------
From Mahasana dasa
As far as the moon shot goes, I am skeptical that they went there. Just like Bush lied us into war and perhaps was one of the minds behind the 9/11 “Pearl Harbor” attack, demons are capable of wonderful things, mostly, unfortunately, they are lies aimed at screwing people out of money.
I remember when they went to the moon. Look at the technology. No computers, no silicon chips, just crap. They claim they went to the moon, dropped down on it then blasted off accurately to the mother ship and came home. On what? Vacuum tubes like our old TV sets? Seriously.
Now we have laser guided bombs that can find their way through a window, the Hubble telescope, silicon chip technology and generations of high speed high storage computers, stealth (invisible) fighters, IPODS, the Internet, etc., etc., etc. Yet we can’t even get the space shuttle up in the air without it blowing up and killing everybody!!! And that is now with this technology which is “light years” ahead of what we had in ‘69. As I recall, our most advanced piece of technology in ‘69 was the electric guitar.
So, with all our advanced technology, if we can’t even get the space shuttle to work, then how the hell did we get that Buck Rogers thing to go to the moon and back? If we could do it with that, then how come we haven’t gone back to the moon with all the advancements we have made? Certainly it would be a “piece of cheese” to go back again.
Originally, the plea was that we had to go to the moon for strategic (military) necessities. So why don’t we go back?
Keep in mind all the $ that was made from that moon shot. If it were staged, then that was quite the rip-off, just like this Iraq war hype turned out to be a rip-off right in front of our watchful eyes and people STILL don’t believe it. What to speak in ‘69 with no internet to police such scams.
Plus, think about it, the moon shot wasn’t a “scientific” endeavor. It was a military endeavor costumed as a scientific event. Everyone knows that NASA functions as a limb of the military tree. These are the same scientists that, by the way, for $$$ will build greater and greater bombs for liars like Bush, so can any of them be trusted at any level when they boldly compromise principle right in front of our faces? We also all know that the military gives our money to industrialists for bloated contracts with no oversight, if possible. How honest is that??? And these are the people we trust will give us a fair shake? They put on the scientist hat just like Bush puts on the Christian hat. Fraudulence.
When I put my foot on the moon, then I will say that “We went to the moon.” But until that day, I am going with Prabhupada in saying that we got scammed (again, and again, and again) by demoniac con-artists
----------------
Pratyatosa wrote:
"Please forgive me for repeating myself, but these moon hoax theorists
are self-motivated people who’s dogmatic religion is that the moon landings
were a hoax. Even when Japan, China and/or India go to the moon and photograph
the Apollo astronaut’s footprints on the surface of the moon, they will
still make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that they
can sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"
Aswer to Pratyatosa by Praghosa
Prabhu:
Amongst most devotees I know - this is not an important issue. However - your
comment above fails to convey a correct perception for why ANY devotee would
have ever really bothered with the subject in the first place; the assertions
made by our Spiritual Master from the day the alleged landings occurred in July
of 1969 - until as late as 1977.
He was the first person I personally ever encountered anywhere - who even broached the subject. He not only suggested that the moon landings were a "bluff" and/or "hoax" but in fact - he insisted that this was in fact the case. He offered various ways of approaching the matter - all with the ultimate point of exposing the "blind faith" of people in general in the material scientists and the governments who move under their influence.
From simple comments like "all over the world Sunday comes before Monday on the calender - to "the Bhagavatam insists that the Sun is closer to the Earth than the Moon", both defied mundane logic and accepted science - and forced us all to consider just how little tangible evidence ever supports much or most of what the scientists, religionists and politicians affirm.
So you have a little background in physics and this makes you the exception to Srila Prabhupada's comments and/or his purpose for expressing them? Don't think so my friend.
Easy Journey to Other Planets is filled with comments on this so-called "space travel" and they are perfect.
Srila Prabhupada had his reasons for identifying the entire project as a bluff and a hoax. We just accept it - even if we cannot fully explain it to anyone's, everyone's or your satisfaction.
When you scoff at such simple reactions to the words of Srila Prabhupada - by anyone - inside or outside of his shelter - you offer more evidence as to your own conditioning and bias than you do on the condition or motivation of others.
Srila Prabhupada chuckled at the uselessness of it all. Whether they went or did not - we could no more eat the dust they purported to dig up and bring with them on their return - than we could the "nuts and bolts" he likewise insisted were equally inedible and therefore without any "real" value. This was the very bright heart of the derision and doubt he cast upon the whole venture. He did this for our benefit. He did not insert his views on the subject - calling it hoax and bluff - in order to "make up some foolish concoction to try and explain them away so that he could sell more books and videos to a gullible public!"
Respectfully, Praghosa
--------
Dear Mother Das
PAMHO AGTSP Hare Krsna
Pratyatosa prabhu initiated this forum a few months back. He sent out invitations to a large list of devotees who found themselves included in various topics. He gave the impression that it was to be an open forum - discussing princples and measures that might be initiated that would serve the principles being discussed.
Various issues came to the fore -but lacking any real cohesive objective - the entire affair succumbed to personal bias and emotional lashing of some by a select group.
The forum was quickly commandeered by a very small cadre of individuals who saw it as "theirs" and proceeded to infiltrate it with their agenda - which interestingly enough - was and remains still - very very unclear.
In time Pratyatosa has revealed himself to have a very confused agenda also. Under the banner of "prabhupadanuga" and the need for loyalty to and identification with the term itself - not the actual correct representation of Srila Prabhupada - but the term - he has now dug a hole and jumped in. Now all those who were previously invited by HIM to participate - are screened BY HIM and must meet HIS presumptive notions, ideas and standards for what does or does not constitute "representation' of Srila Prabhupada and who is or is not to be assigned value as a follower of Srila Prabhupada.
It is all very juvenile and quite animalistic in nature. "Tribal" is the term that comes to mind. Like the Crips and Bloods in the LA County Gang culture.
If you noticed the number of men who actually dared to contribute there - dwindled to roughly 5 at the very most. Clearly -most had concluded that though there might be some thing of interest there - with everyone scattered over thousands of miles of planet earth - forced to endure complete separation or isolation - by choice or force - little could or would come of such disparate discussion - between men who had so little in common and even less invested in one another.
I expressed a simple honest opinion on a simple matter and that was enough for Pratyatosa to say "Good Bye".
He published some comments in the public domain. He should be man enough to own what he states and be perfectly content to let those comments stand alone. You published his comments and YOU were the guilty party? BUT, he should be happy to take responsibility for his comments - or agree that they do not represent Srila Prabhupada. Instead he demands some invented "loyalty" to a fictitious "family" of "real" disciples of Sriila Prabhupada and that you refrain from putting his openly expressed challenge to Srila Prabhupada - and his openly derision for any devotee who would be STUPID enough to take Srila Prabhupada's comments on the moon landing (or anything else for that matter) exactly as they were expressed by Srila Prabhupada.
Pratyatosa Das recently condemned me in the public domain for my expressing my disdain for the Turley Law suit and any role he played in it - ten years back! He of course did not do this when he initially invited me into what is clearly "his" forum.Only after he banned me from participating any further did he commence to position me alongside some of his pet peeves and presumptive conclusions to which he has assigned his own version of "bad".
Unlike Pratyatosa prabhu - I fully and wholey OWN my comments on that travesty or any other - both any made in the past and any I would make in the present.
He is "proud" of the Turley case and his role in it. I hold that the case was itself a flagrant act of abuse against the children themselves, Srila Prabhupada's faithful congregation and ultimately Srila Prabhupada himself. He now brags that he really just used the issue to push his own agenda on the issue of initiation. I hold that such admittance demonstrates a deep seated ignorance and a degree of arrogance unknown to most men.
If anyone - anywhere wishes to discuss that case and what I hold should have been done as a consequence to all the nonsense perpetratrated against so many - contact me and I will be happy to openly discuss that.
Pratyatosa declared that my position on that case - was some form of "Litmus" test he used to determine the value of anything I might offer in any discussion. But again - he did this AFTER he had originally invited my comments to his forum. Only when I dared to actually express my own opinion on what I viewed as an adopted "tribal term" by some - did he dive in and express his own bias.
The Turley Lawsuit and its pursued "settlement" - which I am sure Pratyatosa encouraged - was a deliberate exploitation of young devotees and faithful congregational members - and a demonic setting aside of Srila Prabhupada's management Directives on Incorporation of ISKCON. It was literally like locking Srila Prabhupada in room -while you "settle" things with a group of malcontents who see ISKCON as the cause of their ill fated experiences.
Setting aside reality - in order to assuage one's guilt in such matters - or to enhance one's position as "hero" to an individual or group who have been maligned in some manner is not only ignorant; it is plain wrong.
Mother - this forum has nowhere to go now. Pratyatosa - no matter how well intended he may have been in the beginning with its initial purpose - has shown himself to be filled with the arrogance of presumption and fully prepared to enteratain ONLY comments from an "approved" group of men and women who either agree to be mere silent observers OR individuals who share his presumptions on every and any matter.
In the end - all such "discussion" has to lead to practical action. And all such action will be embarked upon by men and women who agree on the objective, the means to attain it AND are not afraid of what may appear as diverse views on the means - provided all can agree on the goal. Such discussions are vital and healthy.
Pratyatosa - your are our Godbrother and I repsect you for your simple relationship with Srila Prabhuapda and the fact that you certainly chant the Holy Name. You have many skills and talents BUT clearly managing such dialogue in a healthy and constructive fashion - needs a little fine tuning.
I welcome anyone's wish to discuss any issue - on the basis of principal and purposes. Not on the basis of "I like you or I don't like" nonsense. That is less fruitless. That is without any value whatsoever.
Respectfully, Praghosa
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Pratyatosa: As Bhakta Alex Prabhu and Mother Das Prabhu have pointed out (http://z.pe/g8x) in a way that is more kind than I deserve, it turned out that Srila Prabhupada was right and I was wrong. I am praying that Srila Prabhupada can forgive me for my unforgivable offense. I also humbly beg all of you to please at least consider forgiving me. I’m such an arrogant, puffed-up fool, and I deserve to be punished. Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I might do to atone for this offense? Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
YES, in order for you to attone for this offense, you should stop banning devotees from posting to the forum, and become more humble. Dont criticise your guru and have faith in his words.
----------
From: pratyatosa@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010
Subject: To the Moon or Not to the Moon
To: istagosthi@googlegroups.com
This moon landing issue is Krishna's trick to separate the blind followers from those who use their God given intelligence/common sense in the service of God (Krishna). Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
-----------
Pratyatosa: Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Srila Prabhupada wants us to use our God-given intelligence, powers of discrimination, and common sense. For the advanced devotee, this is easy.
Bhakta Mark: So no matter what Srila Prabhupada tells us, we need to suspect it as falsehood until we use our blunt senses in a scientific method to verify what he has said. Great prescription. I'll pass.
-----------
Yes, it seems that is it, what Pratyatosa Prabhu is implying. It seems that he is saying, those who agree with Srila Prabhupada, are nothing but blind followers (of a blind guru?) Sounds pretty offensive to me.
Note: The above comment was blocked by Pratyatosa.
Blocked. Please be a little more kind to those who actually might know Srila
Prabhupada better and love him more than you do. Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa,
Moderator
My concern is that devotees are making Srila Prabhupada look foolish by quoting
his views on the moon landing. Srila Prabhupada has changed his mind, from time
to time, in light of new evidence, and there has been a lot of new evidence
within the past few years which tends to give credence to NASA's version of
events. Ys, Ptd
-----------
Bhakta Mark writes: Who is speculating? My Spiritual Master came to a conclusion. I accept. His statements of conclusion came many years after the second hand "Prabhupada said" you cling to from 1969. How does that fit into your heirarchy of relevance of instruction?
Pratyatosa Prabhu, with all due respect, you want to me to read but I have. Intellegence and analytical discrimination are material, made from the mahat-tattva. The use of such is subject to defect. If there is a subject where Srila Prabhupada has given a CONCLUSION, then for you to suggest we need to double check him using our blunt material senses is offensive.
I know you don't mean to be offensive. I don't but I do it all the time. At least people tell me when I am doing it so I can wake up to reality. So right now I do the same for you. :)
Of course, as you pointed out this conversation has ended up this way before. Perhaps you are not satisfied with Srila Prabhupada as a spiritual master? I know there are some things he wants me to do that I am not ready to, so I am satisfied with where I am. This is safer than to decide that he must be in error because I can't agree with his position. This way he can remain my spiritual master. Rejection is rejection. You are in great jeopardy here, please reconsider.
If one is going to take such a stance, and want others to consider one a disciple, one should AT LEAST keep one's opposition to the Spiritual Master to one's self and not broadcast it!
-----------
RCB writes: These demons can and do hoax anything, why not the moon landing too? Pictures? I do not just believe pictures! But I stated in the past, that I error on the side of Srila Prabhupada first. Take me to the moon and show me the evidence first hand or why should I just trust pictures or their words? Or the words of their trained monkeys in space.
This is not blind following, this is from my gut (Supersoul) and Guru. Not that it makes me exclusively right, nor does it make me exclusively wrong. Nothing blind is going on here. I'm just not as trusting as Pratyatosa, I've been cheated to many times by TPTB's. RCB
Actually I do not consider myself blind, but I might need glasses here and
there, LOL. Actually it was you that set up the argument in your post before
mine. I was responding to your post, I did not bring up anything about 'blind
following' you did. My eye are wide open.
Like you said earlier, this has been done to death, no one has changed their
minds. Then you said that one side of the augment is a 'blind follower'.
It was bate I had to take personally. Actually if we stay with Srila Prabhupada
on this subject, then He says they didn't go! Repeatedly! I find it very easy
to negate science, as not much more than a trial and error system of speculation.
And no I do not take what these blind speculators produce as unequivocally truth.
And this is where we were before, the last time you kicked me off of your
forum. I will be civil to you, but I will not be humble to the scientist
conclusions over my Guru's statements on the subject. I've seen Krsna with
my Guru's guidance, I have bad and worse health because of these mad scientist.
I was much better off before I started with them and their drugs.
With Prabhupada? I was personally introduced to Krsna, I stay with Guru. With
the scientist, I have had bad health for most of the last 20 yrs.
I have my own 'truth' by experience with these Frankenstein mad men. I just
got out of the hospital this morning after a noninvasive procedure to my heart
yesterday, called an Oblation. This is the second time! The first time I told
them before they released me from the hospital that it did not work. All of
their most sophisticated heart medicine/machines is represented here in Gainesville,
by the university and other sci-fi cutting edge research done in this area.
But there cutting edge instrumentation could not detect what I could by being
introspective into my physiology. This is one of 5 such location in the world
I've been informed, as top knoch as you can get. This is nwo's hospital zone!
And a target during nuclear war.
Then there is my deafness! They were giving me medicines many yrs ago, with
side effects that cause deafness, it finally happened. I told them for years
that I had symptoms in my head connected with my ears. Damn dr's never paid
attention(still today they brush it off) and I was to much of a wimp to speak
up and be heard. Plus I was a push over for them to convince me that I needed
what there were prescribing. Finally I stopped taking all of it and suffered
with the result. Twice they prescribed a medication that was known to exasperate
previous heart conditions (I have had Wolf-Parkinson's-White-Syndrome since
I was 18, hereditary they say) and that was when it raise up it's nasty head
from it's benign sleep nesesitaing intervention.
So my choice to follow what Srila Prabhupada says about a thing, I can neither
disprove or prove, is base as much on my life's experience over so-called hard
science, that has brought me mostly grief.
When in dought go with Guru, they never went to the moon
Hare Krsna
RCB
Pratyatosa: If you consider yourself to be a blind follower of Srila
Prabhupada, then why don't you blindly follow Srila Prabhupada's instruction
to not be a blind follower? http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/15a5623ca1dd4940
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
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Kurma writes: credibility or incredibility of a statement has nothing to do with its intrinsic probability or improbability; it depends solely upon the credentials of the authority who makes the statement. The great moon landing hoax stands as a testimony of our faith in the Authority of God and God's Divine Representative A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. As for the Scientists, well, they are always changing their opinions and imperfect instruments aren't they?
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Bhakta Mark writes: The point is that neither you nor I have seen any such evidence that would lead either of us to state, unequivocally, that we know for a fact that any of our peers have walked on the moon because we have PROOF POSITIVE.
So, until we have that proof, there is no point even addressing anyone's claim that they have walked on the moon. It is just a claim, nothing more. We could say, "hey good for you" and walk away without an opinion, which is the way it should be.
Srila Prabhupada had a firm conviction. The scriptures we use describe the moon that we see in the sky as not being in the place where scientists claim it to be. That is all we have to go on.
Now, that said, who gives a flying hoot what someone thinks of Srila Prabhupada's view on the matter? Only a fraction of a fraction of transcendentally oriented people will even think about Krsna for a moment, forget about undergoing discipline to learn to love Him.
We on the other hand claim to be under discipline to come to love Krsna. That means accepting the contradictions apparent in scripture.
That means if your Guru says he has a firm conviction, unless you PERSONALLY have proof to refute and enlighten him, you stay SILENT.
Our process is not about fitting in. It is not about convincing anyone that our Guru is really smart, or that his material knowledge is perfect, or that he was a great guy.
The real test here is whether our need to fit in and be populist will lead us to reject our discipline and contradict our Guru.
Of course the fanatics will use Srila Prabhupada's statements to get into useless arguments with their peers in the world, regarding issues like this, for the sake of arguing and having a sense of "being right". That is a shame. But it is a perennial fact, and can be dealt with without worrying about who thinks Prabhupada is a fool because of His views. Krsna is the supreme cause of all the fanatics making hay with the moon issue, and the supreme cause of someone deciding that our Prabhupada is foolish.
Lucky for the fanatic neophytes, they are fanatic about the right subject matter and will eventually come around. The scientists on the other hand, are in a sense further behind the 8 ball trying to build stairways to heaven. Ironic isn't it?
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Pratyatosa writes: Srila Prabhupada, over a period of several years, repeatedly stated the maximum weight of a woman's brain. Sometimes he would say it was 34 ounces. Sometimes he would say it was 36 ounces. Both figures are not even close. Why didn't the ISKCON "biggies," who were always surrounding him do a little research and inform Srila Prabhupada that those figures were false? Could it be that they were more concerned with keeping their own positions than whether or not Srila Prabhupada got his facts right?
The thing that bothers me is that devotees, who know absolutely nothing about using Kepler's laws to track an object in space, quote Srila Prabhupada's statements like they had some kind of inside information which makes them superior, thus making fools out of themselves and also making Srila Prabhupada look foolish. For all we know, Srila Prabhupada, if he knew then what we know today, might have had a different opinion on the subject.
Answer from Bhakta Mark: How do you know how much the average woman's brain weighs? I sure don't. How do we know that the figures Srila Prabhupada got were from scientists somewhere in siberia where the breed of women is a little different?
I can follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding Spiritual advancement and completely ignore his colorful commentary on this or that material detail. He was preaching. I understand and it doesn't shake me in the least. Like I said, it is IRRELEVANT to me. Because I also don't care if someone takes to him or not. It would be nice, I will introduce him, but if he is rejected due to some random detail like this, I say good riddance to the rejector, the rejector got some Sukriti, better luck next birth.
I have seen alot of hard evidence that the Powers that be were on some level manufacturing a whole lot of subject matter regarding the moon landing. What their reasons were is subject to speculation. Some may have actually got to the real moon planet. I dont' care. It doesn't affect my relationship with Srila Prabhupada in the least. The subject is good fodder for conversation and I use it as a litmus test to determine the level of faith of His disciples based on how they conduct themselves when discussing it.
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Bhakta Mark wrote: I still don't know anything on the subject. I know a thing either from direct perception using scientific method according to my own unbiased integrity, or from authority.
There is so much junk science out there that in order to be satisfied about the authority of someone elses scientific conclusion on an issue, I would need to review their methods. All it takes is a SUBCONSCIOUS OR UNCONSCIOUS agenda bias and a researcher will skew his controls very subtly, it happens ALL THE TIME especially these days with the rapid decline in honesty.
Time magazine is especially dubious for they have gone severely down the liberal hill over the last decade or two. I consider that rag less than junk. Newsweek, national g. and especiall popular mechanics, all ridden with faux science and all less than stool.
Prabhupada was recalling an old professor of his who according to his memory stated 34 or 36 ounce. Prabhupada in July of 1975 said, it may be 20 or maybe even 40 ounce but the fact is it is smaller.
I figure his Psych professor got data from a good 100 years ago. From dead adults, who were probably all born sometime in the 1800's.
Since then the industrial revolution, inbreeding, pesticide and soy consumption, and genetic mutations have thrown everything off kilter. Have you seen some of the creatures that pass for women these days? They are certainly more man than woman, just have to sew on a penis. And some of the wimpy effeminized "men"?
Back then, Men and Women were much closer to what could be considered normal or natural according to Kali Yuga standards. And the scientific community had much greater peer pressure and integrity to control their experiments.
And all this is beside the point, yet important to keep in mind if someone wants to be a disciple.
Prabhupada could say anything, he was an uttama preacher.
If any of his disciples ever find themselves in a situation where some karmi scientist is contradicting what Srila Prabhupada said, especially when there is our scripture that is leaning in Prabhupada's favor, the disciple should say nothing that would contradict Prabhupada. They should either defend Srila Prabhupada by making the higher spiritual point, or shut the heck up and walk away. End of story. If they don't they commit aparadha, and can't say I didn't warn them. Suckers. Hare Krsna
Pratyatosa: "Shut the heck up?" May I remind you, Bhakta Mark Prabhu, that "This is the forum for the disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada who are not afraid of the truth." Do you think that you are in ISKCON or in North Korea where freedom of speech is not allowed?
A few months ago, on the Vaisnavacouncil forum, someone asked me whether or not we should look upon Srila Prabhupada as sometimes being mistaken. I asked my wife how I should answer that question, and she said (paraphrased), "It's not that when Srila Prabhupada says "New Virginia" we go and cross out "West Virginia" on all of our maps!"
Like I said before, the fact that Lord Sri Krishna allows Srila Prabhupada to sometimes make what seem to be mistakes, may have purposes which we can't even begin to understand. But, IMHO, one thing that we can learn from them is that at least some of his "intimate associates" were ignorant, foolish, selfish and/or self-motivated to not correct him (in a very humble way, or course). To make matters worse, they would quite often tell Srila Prabhupada things that they had supposedly read in the news, had seen on TV or had seen in some documentary video tape, which were half-truths or even completely false. In other words, they quite often didn't know what they were talking about. Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Bhakta Mark: Sorry you misunderstood me. Re-read what I said.
"If any of his disciples ever find themselves in a situation where some karmi scientist is contradicting what Srila Prabhupada said, especially when there is our scripture that is leaning in Prabhupada's favor, the disciple should say nothing that would contradict Prabhupada. They should either defend Srila Prabhupada by making the higher spiritual point, or shut the heck up and walk away. End of story. "
It was not an order or command from me. I was only pointing out what is in the best interest of someone to avoid Guru aparadha. And I qualified the suggestion quite narrowly using Scripture as the basis.
Also sorry you feel you need to ask someone else, especially a woman who wants to be a diksa guru, what to think about your Guru's approach to things. Better to work hard and develop a relationship with Him as Caitya Guru so you can go to the source, or next best a humble unassuming male Bhakta who you at least respect somewhat.
And lastly, only an immature, fanatic with arrested mental development would equate your "new virginia" example with a situation where scripture is backing what Srila Prabhupada is saying, as well as at least one scientist. :) A person who would equate the two probably needs to go to the plow department, and take a better birth next life where their preceptor can teach them sense of proportion as opposed to letting them watch cartoons all day. ys B.Mark
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